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 Noldor, and Noldor lore

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Saeros
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PostSubject: Noldor, and Noldor lore   Tue May 08, 2012 11:40 am

This is mainly directed to Azlanek, but everyone can participate. That's why it's in the tavern, after all.

I would really like to know more about the Noldor. Not only as a silvermist, but now as a soon-to-be founder of a Noldor-worshipping cult. It would be great to know, even if roughly, what they way of life is, which gods they worship, and in what they believe.

Now, Saxondragon will most probably not give us details on that. So I propose that those of us who are interested say something short about how they picture Noldor culture, attending to the existing lore, if possible.

Note that this will not be canon in any way. This won't even be in PoP 4. It's just for us Silvermists & Friends having some material to work on, and Gauntlets some actual knowledge of what exactly they hate.

Then I suggest Azlanek gives the final word on which part of it is acceptable and that we consider it as temporary lore, until SD makes the details public. This seems harmless enough and supplies our need of Noldor stuff.

What do you think?


And here my thoughts:

- Noldor are foreign to Pendorians - geographically, culturally, and intellectually -, and in some places they have acquired a semi mythical status. Like mermaids. So everything we think we know about them may be actually only false rumors, heard and retold many times by drunken travellers in taverns. This is already an excuse for not making it canon and not pissing off SD.
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Sir Aranor
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PostSubject: Re: Noldor, and Noldor lore   Tue May 08, 2012 1:16 pm

To me, Noldor is dangerous ground to be touching.

I don't mean to be putting you down or anything, but the reason that the lore for the Noldor has been hidden from us, is probably because no human knows about it. I doubt that the Noldor even consider the humans intelligent enough to share knowledge with them.

Sure, the Silvermists have been communicating with the noldors for years, but years are but drops in an ocean of time for the Noldor. To them, even revealing their way of life to the humans would be like teaching the laws of physics to a toddler. They would probably approach it as a waste of their time as well as yours.

The only thing that I would say would be ok for you to found this 'cult' on is to emulate the Noldor.

By emulating I mean-

- Achieve perfection with your weapons, they are an extension of yourself.
- Protect nature
- Serenity
- Use arms not to attack, but to defend.
- Dancing http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0lUjhEHlh7s

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DiabloDude
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PostSubject: Re: Noldor, and Noldor lore   Tue May 08, 2012 1:35 pm

SD is tight lipped about the Noldor, and we're not allowed to create lore for them.
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Laisha
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PostSubject: Re: Noldor, and Noldor lore   Tue May 08, 2012 5:31 pm

I reckon that's what he had in mind, Aranor. While we can only scratch the surface of the Noldor, for the sake of roleplaying as Silvermists, our order and the Ebony Gauntlet do need to pay a little more than lip service to the concept of fascination/hatred of the Noldor to really feel convincing.

Even if it requires a cult that focuses on those points you mentioned.
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Tubby McChubbles
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PostSubject: Re: Noldor, and Noldor lore   Tue May 08, 2012 6:16 pm

I don't need to know what those beasts worship. Probably some big tree or something.

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Iskar
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PostSubject: Re: Noldor, and Noldor lore   Tue May 08, 2012 8:08 pm

As far as I get it, SD is so tight lipped about the Noldor because he is writing a book about them and does not want to render it obsolete by telling everything in advance.

BUT, as the RP has officially been decoupled from the development of PoP4 and only selected lore will be passed on by Azlanek, I don't see why we should not work on temporary Noldor lore for ourselves.

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Saeros
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PostSubject: Re: Noldor, and Noldor lore   Tue May 08, 2012 11:15 pm

I'm aware that Noldor lore is sacred. So the first question would be: would you, devs, be ok with us developing temporary Noldor lore, under the condition that it be used locally (here in the forum) and never become official?


About Aranor's drop in the Ocean thing: that's precisely the point, we only need vague rumors*. I picture the Pendorian-Noldor relation as the one we find in early 16th century South-American and European cultures. They don't know each other very well, but fantastic reports from scouts tell of stinky hairy monkeys riding monsters and wearing rods that bring down lightning and fire, and of naked barbarians, worshippers of bloodthirsty gods, who live in cities made of gold in and the middle of endless forest mazes.
Despite the more aggresive approach had eventually won, some tribes and nations sought conciliation and built alliances, like Mordred did. And in that case I can only imagine that a particular mythology from both foreign parties may have been created. There was a lot that both sides didn't understand, after all.

*. one exception would be Silvermist knowledge. We were trained by the Noldor, so the information we have is expected to be a bit more solid.
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PostSubject: Re: Noldor, and Noldor lore   Wed May 09, 2012 12:17 am

I would take an example from the Scoia'tael from the world of the Witcher books and games, just to what their society is like: they are suspicious of outsiders. Only a chosen few humans can gain their trust by 100% proving it to them; but letting more humans in would destroy them, and this is why they don't want to let anyone in. They're frightened that they might lose the last power and knowledge they still have, alongside the memories of their old cities.

They are also proud; once they were slaves to the sindari, now lords and free elves, and they see any human as a threat to them unless proven otherwise. These cultists would most probably have to be in very good relations with the Noldor - or perhaps attempt to do that by worshipping the Noldor. Now, I'm sure that they would like it, but at the same time they'd also laugh at you - mock you perhaps.

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PostSubject: Re: Noldor, and Noldor lore   Wed May 09, 2012 10:03 am

Exactly. Also, if the noldor see humans worshipping them they would think less of you. Aeldarian would have a field day. If he sees the humans worshipping them, he would tell the council "look at those savages, they're no different than the barbaric tribes they used to be before Cavalas. They worship us as gods! They are clearly below us."

But, if the cult was geared more at emulating the noldor, they would be flattered and a little giddy that the humans are trying to be like them. Imitation is the highest form of flattery. Ithilrandir would be able to use that to say "they are not savages, look! They are becoming more like us, they have the capacity to learn, if only we would teach them!"

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PostSubject: Re: Noldor, and Noldor lore   Wed May 09, 2012 10:33 am

Indeed. Noldor politics is of vital interest to us since our order is described as the liaison between the royal courts of Sarleon and Elacrai, so it would be interesting to have some information about the situation in the Noldor council, Ithilrandir's and Aeldarian's allies and the undecided ones.

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PostSubject: Re: Noldor, and Noldor lore   Wed May 09, 2012 10:37 am

Interesting...and of course, few groups are monolithic in thought...at least, not without mind control or threats of castration. So much potential for conflict, because it seems like this cult could easily produce members who cut both ways, with some who worship and others who just wish to emulate.
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PostSubject: Re: Noldor, and Noldor lore   Wed May 09, 2012 10:41 am

It doesn't matter if the cult worships them, but it does matter how they act towards the Noldor. If the cult shows up at Elacrai and shows only a desire to learn the culture and the ways of the Noldor, that would be ok. But, if the cult shows up and starts kissing the ground the noldor walk on, that might not be welcomed.

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Saeros
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PostSubject: Re: Noldor, and Noldor lore   Wed May 09, 2012 11:27 am

Quote :
It doesn't matter if the cult worships them, but it does matter how they act towards the Noldor.

I suppose only the grandmaster and the constable are allowed to have direct contact with the Noldor, anyway.

Quote :
If the cult shows up at Elacrai and shows only a desire to learn the culture and the ways of the Noldor.

Theoretically, the whole order was founded on this desire.

Quote :
But, if the cult shows up and starts kissing the ground the noldor walk on, that might not be welcomed.
They won't.


I realize my wording was flawed: emulating doesn't mean worshipping. Those people won't adore the Noldor with offerings and sacrifices, but will try to emulate the traits of their culture that they consider useful and feasible. Noldor have superior skill in everything and this is what draws our attention. You will not see rangers walking around with fake pointy ears and painted colorful horses. But you will probably see some people trying to achieve a deeper understanding of nature, something the Noldor apparently master. Consider it the fanatical wing of the Silvermists, but of a more philosophical kind*.

*. In case you're wondering, I've learned with the Red Dawn phenomenon. I've put a "desire for stability" as one of the two main premises of the thing. This should prevent a rebellion within the order as happened with the Dawn. So this people are some kind of fanactics, but very safe to handle.

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PostSubject: Re: Noldor, and Noldor lore   Wed May 09, 2012 12:24 pm

-_- indeed
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Tubby McChubbles
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PostSubject: Re: Noldor, and Noldor lore   Wed May 09, 2012 10:44 pm

Remember that whatever you do here opens the ground for more disagreement with other orders, especially the Gauntlet.

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-The war cry of Baron Walter de Masny

Project X-Ray: A US army project to strap incendiary bombs to bats and release them over Japan. The plan was abandoned after the bats escaped and destroyed a hangar and a general's car in New Mexico.


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PostSubject: Re: Noldor, and Noldor lore   Thu May 10, 2012 3:20 am

Most certainly. In fact we've had way too few reasons to disagree with each other. Our orders are supposed to heavily antagonise each other and we only had some little arguments about the general question whether the Noldor are good or bad.

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PostSubject: Re: Noldor, and Noldor lore   Fri May 11, 2012 1:10 am

You guys should have a battle that'll be a good read
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PostSubject: Re: Noldor, and Noldor lore   Fri May 11, 2012 6:46 am

Yes.. yes... kill one another for my amusement! Twisted Evil

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PostSubject: Re: Noldor, and Noldor lore   Fri May 11, 2012 6:47 am

We need to finish these damn events before we can take to killing each other...

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Sir Aranor
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PostSubject: Re: Noldor, and Noldor lore   Fri May 11, 2012 6:54 am

How about a deus ex machina? We conclude each event with Mordred coming in with the royal army and rofl-stomping all of our enemies? Kind of like a greek play, with the gods coming in at the end to set things right.

Other Deus ex machinas

-Vigilantes kill Alamar's assassins
-Red Dawn decimate each other arguing over whether or not a shrine to Astraea was built at the right angle.
-Snake Cult army idles out

etc. etc.

note: I am kidding yes.

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PostSubject: Re: Noldor, and Noldor lore   Fri May 11, 2012 7:38 am

Interesting, I've never thought of that. Perhaps that's why some of Plautus' comedies have the gods coming only to mess things up even more. He was probably mocking the Greek dramatists and their funny tropes.
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PostSubject: Re: Noldor, and Noldor lore   Fri May 11, 2012 8:25 am

You guys ever hear of the Odyssesy?
*if not ignore this*
It doesn't end when Odysseus kills the suitors and reclaims his throne, it ends when Athena comes down to restore order to Ithaca when the suitors' relatives come back to get revenge.

So pretty much the humans are the trouble-makers, and the Gods are what sets everything in order.

I've never seen or read any of Plautus' comedies, but that was probably the case.

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PostSubject: Re: Noldor, and Noldor lore   Fri May 11, 2012 8:46 am

Sometimes I wonder if the Illiad was written by people playing their version of Pop Aftermath, where the players were the gods. Its pretty much god-action with humans in the background. Athena, Artemis, Ares and co. controlling soldiers in battle (like us) is the best example Smile Also guiding arrows, giving and taking back magical equipment etc. And then coming back at the end of the game and saying: "ok, that's it, let's pack things up because I have work tomorrow. Let's fix all loose ends and clean up this mess". Very much like a bad season finale of a tv series.

Plautus' jokes are still funny 2500 years later. Dude was really good.
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PostSubject: Re: Noldor, and Noldor lore   Fri May 11, 2012 9:01 am

Who knows. History repeats itself Smile

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PostSubject: Re: Noldor, and Noldor lore   Fri May 11, 2012 9:39 am

Wolfarmin wrote:
You guys should have a battle that'll be a good read

Unfortunately my character has a raging hardon for the king, and dreams of the glory days. He's all about the unity, so step out of line and bam, but toe it, he rages impotently at the evils of the pointy-ears.

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-The war cry of Baron Walter de Masny

Project X-Ray: A US army project to strap incendiary bombs to bats and release them over Japan. The plan was abandoned after the bats escaped and destroyed a hangar and a general's car in New Mexico.


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