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 Republic (bloody title length rule that discriminates against minimalist people although I do concede it works well in preventing spammers, trolls and hobgoblins of all kinds.)

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Saeros
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PostSubject: Republic (bloody title length rule that discriminates against minimalist people although I do concede it works well in preventing spammers, trolls and hobgoblins of all kinds.)    Wed Jun 13, 2012 11:49 am

I was playing Europa Universalis: Rome for the first time in my life this week, and I liked it, especially in regard of its creative government system.

So, two questions:

a) Would it be possible, with sufficient intrigue and adherence from lords, to form a republic in a part of Pendor? Or is it an ambition that will be anyway fruitless (especially since it wouldn't fit PoP 4 history)?

b) Regardless of that and the possibility of that becoming real, a question on lore: has the Empire ever been a Republic in the past? Because it does look like Rome, and also seems to have been the most socially open and scientifically advanced faction before the unification.

PS: A republic does not rule out the aristocratic culture of Pendor. It's even better from a highborn perspective, since it gives lords more power, while weakining the king's.

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PostSubject: Re: Republic (bloody title length rule that discriminates against minimalist people although I do concede it works well in preventing spammers, trolls and hobgoblins of all kinds.)    Wed Jun 13, 2012 12:01 pm

A) The institution of the aristocracy is too embedded into the foundations of Pendor society for there to be a true republic like modern countries. The closest thing to a republic would be either following the model of an imperial free city or a city-state.
Quote :

A republic does not rule out the aristocratic culture of Pendor. It's even better from a highborn perspective, since it gives lords more power, while weakining the king's.

If by republic you mean a elective monarchy.

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Saeros
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PostSubject: Re: Republic (bloody title length rule that discriminates against minimalist people although I do concede it works well in preventing spammers, trolls and hobgoblins of all kinds.)    Wed Jun 13, 2012 12:14 pm

And yet lords keep rebelling and secceding when they have the chance or when the king shows weakness. Perhaps offering them more power would be a well received idea.

By republic I mean a government with a Senate and ruled by a consul. Unlike an absolutist monarchy, with a Senate the ruler's orders must be approved by the senators. This means limiting the power of the rulers and strenghtening that of the lords.

EDIT: Senators are the new nobles.

I couldn't resist.
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PostSubject: Re: Republic (bloody title length rule that discriminates against minimalist people although I do concede it works well in preventing spammers, trolls and hobgoblins of all kinds.)    Wed Jun 13, 2012 12:22 pm

It is not because of their lack of power that they rebel, its their hunger of power.

Pendor's nobles would make an interesting senate.. to say the least.

But given the situation of Pendor, I think a somewhat limited monarchy is the best way to go.

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Marcus the Shadow Fighter
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PostSubject: Re: Republic (bloody title length rule that discriminates against minimalist people although I do concede it works well in preventing spammers, trolls and hobgoblins of all kinds.)    Wed Jun 13, 2012 7:26 pm

To answer your question, no. Not immediately, but perhaps step after step as the inhabitants of the city-state or imperial free city would begin to realize the pros and cons.


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Iskar
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PostSubject: Re: Republic (bloody title length rule that discriminates against minimalist people although I do concede it works well in preventing spammers, trolls and hobgoblins of all kinds.)    Wed Jun 13, 2012 7:32 pm

According to the lore, the Empire had a kind of elections, where the nobles would regularly elect one of them to rule as Imperator for a certain time. Only Marius abolished this practice in order to establish himself as unquestioned ruler. This information is given by the Empire's claimant, whose story is analogous to the story of the Rhodoks claimant in Warband.

So the empire was pretty much an electoral monarchy with a strong senate/nobility.

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PostSubject: Re: Republic (bloody title length rule that discriminates against minimalist people although I do concede it works well in preventing spammers, trolls and hobgoblins of all kinds.)    Thu Aug 16, 2012 1:40 am

And what if the senators would be the Grandmasters of every Knightly Order in the game? With the King as referee..

We could RP several gettogethers as a debate.

Basicly the same as now, but then the Grandmaster would know more about eachothers orders.
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PostSubject: Re: Republic (bloody title length rule that discriminates against minimalist people although I do concede it works well in preventing spammers, trolls and hobgoblins of all kinds.)    Thu Aug 16, 2012 1:55 am

What you're after is the Diet of the Holy Roman Empire. A collection of nobles, clerics, and even wealthy merchants that in theory restrained the power of the Emperor by controlling the kinds of proposals that become law. The Diet didn't elect the Emperor, or even elect the Electors.

Most European monarchies had some form of parliament, though the powers, both in theory and in practice, wildly varied. The nobles of Poland were so powerful that they ultimately crippled the state to the point that the neighbors simply helped themselves to Polish territory. The Commonwealth's response wasn't even noteworthy, and so Austria, Russia and Prussia did it again but left nothing behind for the Poles. On the other hand the Estates-General of France... well, when they were called they had some power. Of course, they all varied in power over the centuries.
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Saeros
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PostSubject: Re: Republic (bloody title length rule that discriminates against minimalist people although I do concede it works well in preventing spammers, trolls and hobgoblins of all kinds.)    Thu Aug 16, 2012 3:02 am

Quote :
And what if the senators would be the Grandmasters of every Knightly Order in the game? With the King as referee..
We could RP several gettogethers as a debate.
Basicly the same as now, but then the Grandmaster would know more about eachothers orders.

Good luck trying to persuade Griffon and Sarleon conservatives to adopt a new system.

But I like the idea. It's funny that, although being the most powerful citizens apart from the king, the grandmasters barely speak to each other IC.
To achieve what you're saying, you'll need to consider these questions:

1) who currently has power in Pendor (nobles? merchants? knights? adventurers?)
2) you need to convince them: how can you give them more power?
3) once the system is beginning to change, how can you prevent others from taking the opportunity and launching a full scale rebellion? Because once you say "hey, let's weaken the king's power", it's very easy for someone as Brennus say "hey, let's remove the king altogether! Crown me instead!". And then we'll be back to the old times of blood and chaos.


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PostSubject: Re: Republic (bloody title length rule that discriminates against minimalist people although I do concede it works well in preventing spammers, trolls and hobgoblins of all kinds.)    Thu Aug 16, 2012 3:08 am

There would have to be some reason for Mordred to call an assembly of the Kingdom's powerbrokers in the first place. If the kingdom is 'enduring' a prosperous, stable rule, why would anyone want to change it? After the shake-ups of the unification, there would definitely be plenty of people unhappy, but most of the powerbrokers seem to have attached themselves to King Mordred and so he enjoys an incredibly wide base of support... peasants, nobility, the merchants of the Empire and Fierdsvain, the clergy of Astraea apparently.

At this point in time, there are no threats to Mordred's rule and the Kingdom is reasonably stable. Those things need to change for there to be any point in an assembly of power.
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PostSubject: Re: Republic (bloody title length rule that discriminates against minimalist people although I do concede it works well in preventing spammers, trolls and hobgoblins of all kinds.)    Thu Aug 16, 2012 3:21 am

Quote :
why would anyone want to change it?

Who knows? Humans are crazy.

Mordred has indeed a lot of support, but I recall that there are still serious threats looming around. There's entire Ravenstern not-so-secretly desiring to become autonomous; Singal, an already free city of sorts; and a number of lords who hate the king and are just waiting for an opportunity to strike (at least one openly defies the Law of Halves).
Then there is the Eastern alliance/coalition/whatever: Silvermists, Legion and local lords acting together, with a force almost as powerful as the Pendorian army. They have been extremely loyal so far... but remember that the Shadow Legion always wanted to restore the old Baccus Empire...

I don't think our king ever sleeps.
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PostSubject: Re: Republic (bloody title length rule that discriminates against minimalist people although I do concede it works well in preventing spammers, trolls and hobgoblins of all kinds.)    Thu Aug 16, 2012 3:26 am

Certainly there are threats, but parliaments and the like are the breeding ground of factionalism. The King would summon the Estates because he needs to rally support and use his political capital in a more efficient manner. (People respond better in the Monarch's seat of power than in their own castles.) At the moment the status quo is good, summoning the nobles would upset it one way or the other for the King. Even though the King's relative position would probably improve initially if the nobles and burghers were summoned, he could easily see himself overwhelmed. Not everyone is a Metternich or Talleyrand when it comes to such events. I think there is great potential for RP in this and I hope something along these lines is implemented, but something has to occur to justify it ICly.

The Eastern faction's power will certainly be addressed after the mini-events, I have faith in the GMs to not pass up such potential.
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PostSubject: Re: Republic (bloody title length rule that discriminates against minimalist people although I do concede it works well in preventing spammers, trolls and hobgoblins of all kinds.)    Thu Aug 16, 2012 3:38 am

Perhaps we could keep it like it is Wink

But I would like to see some kind of meeting after the events. (not just a letter to the king)

It could be some sort of council, with the King sitting higher than the Grandmasters. This way you can directly RP the reactions of other Grandmasters on, for example, the escalated events in Laria. It would show us the strife between the Eventide/Dawn and Silvermist/Gauntlet way better than just a short remark during a event.
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PostSubject: Re: Republic (bloody title length rule that discriminates against minimalist people although I do concede it works well in preventing spammers, trolls and hobgoblins of all kinds.)    Thu Aug 16, 2012 3:42 am

I would definitely not push for something grandmaster-only, plus the King already has a council.

The Grandmasters are also mostly the gamemasters... I don't think they would be terribly enthusiastic about yet another RP chore.

The Grandmasters would certianly wield considerable influence in any kind of parliament, but it would be more fun if everyone RPed a certain character involved. Of course they would need to be in an area that is not heavily influenced by another Order, unless that is all agreed upon.
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PostSubject: Re: Republic (bloody title length rule that discriminates against minimalist people although I do concede it works well in preventing spammers, trolls and hobgoblins of all kinds.)    Thu Aug 16, 2012 3:45 am

Ana Sulran wrote:
I would definitely not push for something grandmaster-only, plus the King already has a council.

The Grandmasters are also mostly the gamemasters... I don't think they would be terribly enthusiastic about yet another RP chore.

The Grandmasters would certianly wield considerable influence in any kind of parliament, but it would be more fun if everyone RPed a certain character involved. Of course they would need to be in an area that is not heavily influenced by another Order, unless that is all agreed upon.

I guess representatives could do the job too.
But It should be in Sarleon, you're not sending your King to a Order-neutral environment. that's just crazy
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PostSubject: Re: Republic (bloody title length rule that discriminates against minimalist people although I do concede it works well in preventing spammers, trolls and hobgoblins of all kinds.)    Thu Aug 16, 2012 3:48 am

I don't think anyone proposed it being elsewhere?

It really depends on what the King is attempting to do. Holding court outside of Sarleon could be beneficial, after all, is he not Lord of the entire Realm and all Orders subordinate to him? Sarleon is his base of power, where he can overawe more provincial powerbrokers and pull them away from their own support bases.. this is usually what monarchs did, but not always.
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