| A Song of Ice and Fire | |
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+5Ser Varys Sir Haegon Marcus the Shadow Fighter Saeros Isabel Tenorio 9 posters |
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Isabel Tenorio Knight
Posts : 1610 Join date : 2012-06-20
| Subject: A Song of Ice and Fire Sat Aug 04, 2012 12:10 am | |
| Now we have a thread to keep potential spoilers out of other threads. Since not everyone has finished all of the books, we should still keep things in spoilers and note what book the info is coming from. As to ignoring the magic... Book 2 - Spoiler:
It's rather hard to ignore it when a shadow murders a main character.
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Saeros Voice of the Nobility
Posts : 1863 Join date : 2011-08-22 Location : Avernus
| Subject: Re: A Song of Ice and Fire Sat Aug 04, 2012 12:16 am | |
| Yeah, but did it indeed? (I didn't read that chapter. I usually read only the cool characters first. But you can spoil it at will.).
ASOIF is a point-of-view story. Perhaps what was described as a shadow was merely a regular assassin, who Brienne/Catelyn/whatever, in panic, interpreted as a shadow. | |
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Isabel Tenorio Knight
Posts : 1610 Join date : 2012-06-20
| Subject: Re: A Song of Ice and Fire Sat Aug 04, 2012 12:18 am | |
| It was very clear that it was magic. One of the previous chapters showed how it came to be, as well. If you're a fan of the HBO series (Come on, everyone is!) that made it even less subtle, unfortunately. | |
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Saeros Voice of the Nobility
Posts : 1863 Join date : 2011-08-22 Location : Avernus
| Subject: Re: A Song of Ice and Fire Sat Aug 04, 2012 12:24 am | |
| I think the best evidence for magic you can find in Westeros is the Wall itself. Sure, there are white-walkers and ressurected people. But the wall is massive! | |
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Isabel Tenorio Knight
Posts : 1610 Join date : 2012-06-20
| Subject: Re: A Song of Ice and Fire Sat Aug 04, 2012 12:28 am | |
| Oddly, I like the Wall as a level of magic. Sure, a giant wall of ice is rather... in-your-face with its mere existance, but the magic involved is more subtle and just less distracting. There was another example that is easily ignored, and is the way I would have preferred he kept magic. I think this was book 3, but it may have been book 4. Either way, this is a true spoiler, so be warned!- Spoiler:
Stannis using his 'king's' blood to curse the other Kings. Then, they all happen to die. None of them die directly of any kind of magic though.
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Marcus the Shadow Fighter Grandmaster
Posts : 1148 Join date : 2011-08-20 Location : A windy cavern somewhere near Helsinki
| Subject: Re: A Song of Ice and Fire Sat Aug 04, 2012 12:30 am | |
| Resurrections sound absurd to me. | |
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Isabel Tenorio Knight
Posts : 1610 Join date : 2012-06-20
| Subject: Re: A Song of Ice and Fire Sat Aug 04, 2012 12:38 am | |
| The resurrected characters are carrying out my least favorite arc in the series so far. Including magic is really unnecessary for their revenge too. A cliff-hanger from Book 5 - Spoiler:
If he kills off Jaime Lannister, I might just stop reading it. The character has come too far to die just yet. He has too many other challenges to face before he can be properly killed off!
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Sir Haegon Knight
Posts : 1471 Join date : 2012-02-20 Location : Sarleon
| Subject: Re: A Song of Ice and Fire Sat Aug 04, 2012 12:40 am | |
| I think the magic in asoiaf is rather subtile. Instead of an assassin: a shadow and that 'curse' (Although I doubt if that curse had any effect) The Dragons are, ofcourse, awesome because the Targaryens (and the Blackfyres) are awesome too The Dead Cat, really ruins a large part for me.. I really want to read the effect of the knights of faith (can't remember their name ) and the fact that my favourite (royal) house if coming back to Westeros. | |
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Marcus the Shadow Fighter Grandmaster
Posts : 1148 Join date : 2011-08-20 Location : A windy cavern somewhere near Helsinki
| Subject: Re: A Song of Ice and Fire Sat Aug 04, 2012 12:45 am | |
| Well, Pedron Niall died in the Wheel of Time series before he could fulfill his dreams of an unified world under the Whitecloak rule. (It could've even been a nice thing.)
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Isabel Tenorio Knight
Posts : 1610 Join date : 2012-06-20
| Subject: Re: A Song of Ice and Fire Sat Aug 04, 2012 12:53 am | |
| I still have some faith for the revival of the political side of the Game. Speculation from Book 5 - Spoiler:
The new player, Aegon VI, is not Rhaegar's son. Rather, he is Illyrio's son by the Blackfyre woman he married. The one whose hands he kept in jars after death. >.> It explains why Varys stopped being so incomprehensible in his grand scheme.
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Sir Haegon Knight
Posts : 1471 Join date : 2012-02-20 Location : Sarleon
| Subject: Re: A Song of Ice and Fire Sat Aug 04, 2012 1:09 am | |
| - Ana Sulran wrote:
- I still have some faith for the revival of the political side of the Game.
Speculation from Book 5
- Spoiler:
The new player, Aegon VI, is not Rhaegar's son. Rather, he is Illyrio's son by the Blackfyre woman he married. The one whose hands he kept in jars after death. >.> It explains why Varys stopped being so incomprehensible in his grand scheme.
I really hate that! - Spoiler:
The asoiaf forums are full of these schemes about Varys actually being a Blackfyre and that he lied to a dying Kevan Lannister.. Some fans would actually write a book about it, but in the end it is all just speculation...
way too far fetched if you ask me... also because lots of argument supporting it are from the Tales of Dunk&Egg. And it would be very nasty if you have to buy those short stories in order to understand what is going on in asoiaf | |
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Isabel Tenorio Knight
Posts : 1610 Join date : 2012-06-20
| Subject: Re: A Song of Ice and Fire Sat Aug 04, 2012 1:12 am | |
| I didn't need any short stories to come to that conclusion. - Spoiler:
Tyrion kept trying to find out why Illyrio would support anything in Westeros, and doesn't buy his claims. Illyrio had a Blackfyre wife, and misses his youth. Varys and Illyrio are very loyal to each other, but there isn't much of a reason why they keep supporting the Targaryans. Varys smuggling away Aegon is entirely possible... but Martin's writing is often predictable.
It is just speculation, of course. Martin could very well go a different route and I wouldn't be too surprised. | |
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Sir Haegon Knight
Posts : 1471 Join date : 2012-02-20 Location : Sarleon
| Subject: Re: A Song of Ice and Fire Sat Aug 04, 2012 1:21 am | |
| he had a westerosi noble woman as wife, because of Aerys. She died and then he loved a slave from Lys.
THey think this Lyseen Slave is the sister of Varys (also from Lys) and therefore a blackfyre.
Varys would be a Blackfyre because a certain red priest cut off his manhood and burned it in a ritual. (perhaps one where you'd need royal blood) I think it is far-fetched and am still waiting for the Valyrian swords of the Targaryens: Blackfyre and Dark Sister. | |
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Isabel Tenorio Knight
Posts : 1610 Join date : 2012-06-20
| Subject: Re: A Song of Ice and Fire Sun Aug 05, 2012 12:59 am | |
| House Martell... great House, or greatest House? | |
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Sir Haegon Knight
Posts : 1471 Join date : 2012-02-20 Location : Sarleon
| Subject: Re: A Song of Ice and Fire Sun Aug 05, 2012 1:01 am | |
| - Ana Sulran wrote:
- House Martell... great House, or greatest House?
great. Love it. could be the greatest atm. but the greatest was and will always be the Targaryens.
Last edited by Aelos on Sun Aug 05, 2012 1:55 am; edited 1 time in total | |
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Marcus the Shadow Fighter Grandmaster
Posts : 1148 Join date : 2011-08-20 Location : A windy cavern somewhere near Helsinki
| Subject: Re: A Song of Ice and Fire Sun Aug 05, 2012 1:54 am | |
| It's like the Game of Houses, except that it's concentrated ONLY in the Game. | |
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Ser Varys Grandmaster
Posts : 753 Join date : 2011-09-26 Location : East Coast USA
| Subject: Re: A Song of Ice and Fire Sun Aug 05, 2012 4:16 am | |
| - Aelos wrote:
- Ana Sulran wrote:
- House Martell... great House, or greatest House?
great. Love it. could be the greatest atm.
but the greatest was and will always be the Targaryens. The Targaryens couldn't subdue the Martells and Dorne through warfare, they had to resort to marriage pacts. I find their words, "Unbowed, Unbent, Unbroken," to be the most fitting/interesting. | |
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Sir Haegon Knight
Posts : 1471 Join date : 2012-02-20 Location : Sarleon
| Subject: Re: A Song of Ice and Fire Sun Aug 05, 2012 4:31 am | |
| So the appointed steward failed.
What if Aegon the Dragonlord took Dorne as well? I am convinced he could have, though why didn't he? | |
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Isabel Tenorio Knight
Posts : 1610 Join date : 2012-06-20
| Subject: Re: A Song of Ice and Fire Sun Aug 05, 2012 4:45 am | |
| The Martells have been masters of diplomacy and true warfare. Beating them in the field doesn't mean a thing, they always come out ahead in the end. They've gathered the principles of war in a (enlightened) Clausewitzian manner. War isn't about the military conflict, but the political struggle. Spoilers from Book 3 - Spoiler:
That is why the Young Wolf could never have won in the end. He had no sense of what he was really trying to accomplish. He had no interest in acting as King of a would-be independent kingdom. He just liked marching his army around and dreamt of avenging his father. Even if he had managed to take King's Landing, the war wouldn't have ended for him.
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Sir Haegon Knight
Posts : 1471 Join date : 2012-02-20 Location : Sarleon
| Subject: Re: A Song of Ice and Fire Sun Aug 05, 2012 4:53 am | |
| But isn't there more fun in fighting and shedding unnecessary blood? The Targaryens have proven to master that discipline of war. - Spoiler:
and madness, but that aside
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Isabel Tenorio Knight
Posts : 1610 Join date : 2012-06-20
| Subject: Re: A Song of Ice and Fire Sun Aug 05, 2012 4:55 am | |
| The Targaryans had dragons. That's how they won their wars.
Had the Dragons died within the first generation, even within the first three, the dynasty would have lost control of at least a few of the Seven Kingdoms. | |
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Sir Haegon Knight
Posts : 1471 Join date : 2012-02-20 Location : Sarleon
| Subject: Re: A Song of Ice and Fire Sun Aug 05, 2012 4:57 am | |
| I disagree.
The banner of war was raised by the faith, no dragon can fight that. It would involve attacking your own settlements with dragonfire and ruining your Kingdom. That is why Maeghor offered golden dragons for every dead knight.
What about the Blackfyre rebellion? The Kingdoms could have declared for themselves... | |
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Isabel Tenorio Knight
Posts : 1610 Join date : 2012-06-20
| Subject: Re: A Song of Ice and Fire Sun Aug 05, 2012 5:01 am | |
| Generations later.
The Targaryans were not always incompetent/mad as rulers. The point is, they owe their grand success at conquest to dragons, not soldiers. Once they acquired massive amounts of political capital, they survived. They didn't conquer Seven Kingdoms with faith, they did so with dragons.
They did a spectacular job of keeping themselves 'above' the lords of the former Kingdoms, which played into their legitimacy. Holding onto the throne after a rebellion here and there isn't the sign of a great dynasty. | |
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Ser Varys Grandmaster
Posts : 753 Join date : 2011-09-26 Location : East Coast USA
| Subject: Re: A Song of Ice and Fire Sun Aug 05, 2012 5:02 am | |
| - Aelos wrote:
- So the appointed steward failed.
What if Aegon the Dragonlord took Dorne as well? I am convinced he could have, though why didn't he? Even with his oh-so-powerful dragons, he lost thousands of troops due to guerrilla fighting in Dorne. He continued to lose troops, and never managed to have any successful victory against Dorne, so he decided to withdraw. The Targaryens aren't that good at war without their dragons. Hence Roberts Rebellion, the Dornish Rebellion, etc. | |
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Sir Haegon Knight
Posts : 1471 Join date : 2012-02-20 Location : Sarleon
| Subject: Re: A Song of Ice and Fire Sun Aug 05, 2012 5:04 am | |
| But they are the Targaryens!
Maeghor was the younger son of Aegon I btw.
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