An RPG detailing the aftermath of the events of PoP3 and the events before PoP4
 
HomeHome  CalendarCalendar  FAQFAQ  SearchSearch  MemberlistMemberlist  UsergroupsUsergroups  RegisterRegister  Log in  

Share | 
 

 Vinland: Revelations

View previous topic View next topic Go down 
Go to page : Previous  1, 2, 3
AuthorMessage
Saeros
Voice of the Nobility
avatar

Posts : 1863
Join date : 2011-08-22
Location : Avernus

PostSubject: Re: Vinland: Revelations   Wed Oct 17, 2012 12:00 pm

Congratulations!

^ this will be me this Saturday.
Back to top Go down
View user profile
Mordred
Dragon of the North
avatar

Posts : 2518
Join date : 2011-08-19
Age : 32
Location : London

PostSubject: Re: Vinland: Revelations   Thu Oct 25, 2012 8:30 am

As many of you will know I am working on a series set in Viking Vinland, now part of that plan was to envision America in 1492 if the Vikings had managed to survive for that long. A big part of this included how religion would have evolved there with the early form of Christianity that the Norse embraced at the time, together with their more ancestral Norse paganism (with Odin, Thor, etc), and eventually a dose of Native American shamanism added to it. Now some of what I cover below could be considered blasphemous by those of a religious mind, particularly Christians. However please bear in mind that this is a study of how that faith could have expanded had it lost contact with papal influence and had Vinlandic leaders not had contact with other Christian rulers (thereby not joining the "club" which was a primary factor in the adoption of Christianity by Scandinavian nobles, and the basis for some very cataclysmic struggles there as they forcefully converted their people).

First a little on the early Christianity I mentioned above. Most Norse accepted Christianity far more than is often believed, however they considered it alongside the Norse pantheon rather than instead of it. Therefore in their eyes, Jesus Christ was another god sitting alongside Odin, Thor, Tyr, and the others. They struggled far more to understand the concept of the omnipotent, omnipresent figure that was "god", so they concentrated on the more physical icon that was Jesus himself, and cast him as god instead. The symbol of this that I use in the book is a Mjolnir Cross, basically the usual Mjolnir amulet that is often associated with the Norse, but with an elongated handle that makes it look more like a cross.

Now, on to the actual theology. In Norse theory, someone who dies bravely will go to Valhalla to stand alongside the gods at the final battle of Ragnarok, but the ascension of Jesus a mere mortal, to not only Valhalla, but as an actual god throws open the possibility that anyone could become a god, if only they have the character and power to do so.

The issue of Jesus being the son of (a?) god becomes a little muddled (particularly as you then have to consider, which god?), if so is this proof that the gods have more contact with men than was initially believed? What if Jesus was a son of Odin? Could he be making a move to become the new king of the gods if he is in fact more powerful (a question with very serious implications, and possibly the root of an oncoming schism). What if Jesus was the son of Loki, and this is just one of the biggest pranks the trickster has played? It is all too typical of the tricks played by him, on one side he gives man the potential and ambition to become a god, but on the flip side this could all ultimately be a false hope.

This then leads to the question, is it any mortal who can ascend or does it have to be an actual child of a god? If so, how does one manifest the type of powers that Jesus had? This is where the Native American shamanism plays a role, particularly on their emphasis on visions, spirits and spirit guides which is great because it provides us a nice link between the mortal and the mystical. Could someone who receives these visions actually be experiencing their divine power? Could they hope then not only to reach Valhalla, but in time to rule it?
Back to top Go down
View user profile http://zatobo.com/
Isabel Tenorio
Knight
avatar

Posts : 1610
Join date : 2012-06-20

PostSubject: Re: Vinland: Revelations   Thu Oct 25, 2012 8:48 am

I like it. How is the religion itself organized? Around individual shamans, each with their own particular twists and wisdom?
Back to top Go down
View user profile
Mordred
Dragon of the North
avatar

Posts : 2518
Join date : 2011-08-19
Age : 32
Location : London

PostSubject: Re: Vinland: Revelations   Thu Oct 25, 2012 8:58 am

I've not got beyond the base theology yet to be honest, the books which will truly cover this are a long ways off yet. I do however have a nice idea of how to detail the split between Vinlandic religion and why Scandinavia (or Europe) didn't embrace it. Better yet, it involves a real event Very Happy

As to your question, it will likely be maintained by the godi (wandering priests), but spotted with a large number of prophets of varying power and with various cults built around them. Each of these cults will be more or less legitimate depending on the power of their central figure and the popular support they can gain. Some will probably be supporting dead prophets, hoping that their worship will cause their hero to ascend and thus reward their followers.

Different cults will espouse differing tenants, such as wisdom, glory, bravery; some might be pseudo religious brotherhoods like some believe the Berserkers to have been, for instance "The Brotherhood of the Bear". I only really have an idea for one cult at the moment, but its a pretty cool one and is linked to the events of the current books, so it is certainly going to be one of the longest lived.

One thing I could use though, is a proper name for this faith. Currently I have it flagged as "The Third Way" (ie it's not Paganism, and its not Christianity), but that just doesn't sound cool enough.
Back to top Go down
View user profile http://zatobo.com/
Saeros
Voice of the Nobility
avatar

Posts : 1863
Join date : 2011-08-22
Location : Avernus

PostSubject: Re: Vinland: Revelations   Thu Oct 25, 2012 9:02 am

I like it too. My first thought is extending the list of equivalencies: Valkyries as angels, The Wild Hunt as an impression of the Christian Apocalypse, Einherjerne as saints (?).

My second thought is that your seamen could have interpreted the native shamanism as a different perspective of the same belief, not as a whole different pantheon etc. For example, native shamanic practices could be seen as something that the Viking didn't have: a way of actually travelling to Valhalla (for a brief time).
Back to top Go down
View user profile
Mordred
Dragon of the North
avatar

Posts : 2518
Join date : 2011-08-19
Age : 32
Location : London

PostSubject: Re: Vinland: Revelations   Thu Oct 25, 2012 9:10 am

Saeros wrote:

My second thought is that your seamen could have interpreted the native shamanism as a different perspective of the same belief, not as a whole different pantheon etc. For example, native shamanic practices could be seen as something that the Viking didn't have: a way of actually travelling to Valhalla (for a brief time).

Oh, now that is an interesting idea! I already have one of the Vikings' discover a spirit guide who leads him on the trail of a group he was trying to find, but had lost their tracks. This spiritual ability attracts the attention of the godi who accompanied the crew, and thus the first prophet is born (though he is not considered such for many, many years).

I had not considered this to actually visit Valhalla though, nice concept. I already drew parallels in my mind between Christianity and Norse paganism (I hate calling it that... is there a proper term for it?) particularly with the examples you gave, heh.
Back to top Go down
View user profile http://zatobo.com/
Saeros
Voice of the Nobility
avatar

Posts : 1863
Join date : 2011-08-22
Location : Avernus

PostSubject: Re: Vinland: Revelations   Thu Oct 25, 2012 9:25 am

It doesn't have to be an actual trip to the Valhalla. But if I were a Viking and heard of people traveling to other worlds, that's what I'd think.

Quote :
is there a proper term for it
Faith of the Aesir (Asatru)? The term may be anachronic, though.
Back to top Go down
View user profile
Iskar
Peasant turned Lord
avatar

Posts : 4142
Join date : 2011-08-19
Age : 29
Location : Germany

PostSubject: Re: Vinland: Revelations   Thu Oct 25, 2012 9:41 am

I'd rather call it norse(/germanic) polytheism. EDIT: Saeros's version is better.

The basis of your ideas (i.e. that a people adopts christianity not instead of but in addition to its former religion) reminds me very much of the birth of Arianism:
Among the (east-)germanic peoples more or less converted to christianity by Wulfila and his likes the complex, rather philosophical idea of the trinity together with the difficult balance between ascendental and descendental aspects of the Christ (on the one hand being the pre-existent creator-god himself, come down to earth in human form to redeem mankind, on the other hand being human born and raised to god-father on Ascension) were not too popular. Instead they took the christian belief and simplified it according to their traditions. Arianism thus claimed that Jesus Christ was just a man and not the pre-existent god himself, and that he was raised to be god's son after this death and resurrection as a reward for his deeds. This simpler layout fit much better with the tribal concepts of chieftains and followers, fathers and (actual) sons.

Well, Arianism was banned in the Councils of Nikaia and Chalkedon (I think...), but your "Third Way" is separated from the catholic church and thus has a chance to survive. As for a name, if you have a leading godi with a tuneful name, call it <name>-ism, like Arianism, which was founded by Arius. Or make it a compound that somewhat indicates its core point, like "Way of the Asgardr Kristur" (the Asgard Christ), or "Followers of Asa-Christ/Asa-Kristur".

(cf. this snippet from Wikipedia's article on the Aesir (nordic for "gods"): "In genitival compounds, it takes the form ása-, e.g. in Ása-Þórr "Thor of the Aesir" [...].")

_________________
Lord Constable of the Order of the Silvermist and Admin despite Himself
Character Overview:
 
Back to top Go down
View user profile
Saeros
Voice of the Nobility
avatar

Posts : 1863
Join date : 2011-08-22
Location : Avernus

PostSubject: Re: Vinland: Revelations   Thu Oct 25, 2012 9:45 am

Checked, definitely anachronic, but I'd use it anyway. "Åsatru" if you prefer to use Norwegian bubble letters.
Back to top Go down
View user profile
Iskar
Peasant turned Lord
avatar

Posts : 4142
Join date : 2011-08-19
Age : 29
Location : Germany

PostSubject: Re: Vinland: Revelations   Thu Oct 25, 2012 9:47 am

Using icelandic should come pretty close to the language spoken by Leifur Eriksson, since their language has hardly changed for 1000 years, as I understand.

_________________
Lord Constable of the Order of the Silvermist and Admin despite Himself
Character Overview:
 
Back to top Go down
View user profile
Mordred
Dragon of the North
avatar

Posts : 2518
Join date : 2011-08-19
Age : 32
Location : London

PostSubject: Re: Vinland: Revelations   Thu Oct 25, 2012 9:48 am

Excellent, think I will just refer to it as the Aesir faith or something. Thanks.

EDIT : Iskar's reply snuck in. I try to keep the names somewhat Anglicised, both for conformity to a single standard but also because it is more readable and understandable for modern audiences.
Back to top Go down
View user profile http://zatobo.com/
Saeros
Voice of the Nobility
avatar

Posts : 1863
Join date : 2011-08-22
Location : Avernus

PostSubject: Re: Vinland: Revelations   Thu Oct 25, 2012 9:51 am

@Iskar: Well thought. They have a very conservative approach to language there (and will be the jewel of historical linguists in a couple of centuries).

@Mordred: Paraphrasing is good. And it avoids ruining your careful research by using an anachronic word.
Back to top Go down
View user profile
Iskar
Peasant turned Lord
avatar

Posts : 4142
Join date : 2011-08-19
Age : 29
Location : Germany

PostSubject: Re: Vinland: Revelations   Thu Oct 25, 2012 9:53 am

If you want to keep it English, what about "Way/Faith of the Asgard Christ"?

_________________
Lord Constable of the Order of the Silvermist and Admin despite Himself
Character Overview:
 
Back to top Go down
View user profile
Mordred
Dragon of the North
avatar

Posts : 2518
Join date : 2011-08-19
Age : 32
Location : London

PostSubject: Re: Vinland: Revelations   Thu Oct 25, 2012 9:55 am

I was thinking more along the lines of the Way of Ascension or something.
Back to top Go down
View user profile http://zatobo.com/
Iskar
Peasant turned Lord
avatar

Posts : 4142
Join date : 2011-08-19
Age : 29
Location : Germany

PostSubject: Re: Vinland: Revelations   Thu Oct 25, 2012 10:03 am

Can you find an anglo-saxon-rooted word for ascension? Words of french-latin origin feel wrong for me in the context of vikings. (Remember Tolkien who actively avoided words of latin origin to make his texts support the anglo-saxon feeling of Rohan better.)

_________________
Lord Constable of the Order of the Silvermist and Admin despite Himself
Character Overview:
 
Back to top Go down
View user profile
Saeros
Voice of the Nobility
avatar

Posts : 1863
Join date : 2011-08-22
Location : Avernus

PostSubject: Re: Vinland: Revelations   Thu Oct 25, 2012 10:10 am

"Heis" is the Norwegian for elevator. Wikipedia translates Christian ascension as "Himmelfart" ("Journey to Heaven"). Make whaterver you want with that.

This made me curious and I looked further for other philosophical concepts. Surprisingly, in Norwegian the majority of them have Latin roots.
Back to top Go down
View user profile
Mordred
Dragon of the North
avatar

Posts : 2518
Join date : 2011-08-19
Age : 32
Location : London

PostSubject: Re: Vinland: Revelations   Thu Oct 25, 2012 10:11 am

Good idea. The cult I spoke of are called "The Gudrun" which means "Battle" and "Secret or Wisdom".

I'll look into that further.

EDIT: The roots doesn't surprise me, they would have originated with the Christian missionaries who spoke Latin.
Back to top Go down
View user profile http://zatobo.com/
Isabel Tenorio
Knight
avatar

Posts : 1610
Join date : 2012-06-20

PostSubject: Re: Vinland: Revelations   Thu Oct 25, 2012 10:13 am

You enjoy starting CKII as Harold Harada don't you? tongue
Back to top Go down
View user profile
Iskar
Peasant turned Lord
avatar

Posts : 4142
Join date : 2011-08-19
Age : 29
Location : Germany

PostSubject: Re: Vinland: Revelations   Thu Oct 25, 2012 10:16 am

Mordred wrote:
EDIT: The roots doesn't surprise me, they would have originated with the Christian missionaries who spoke Latin.
Or did they? Wulfila was so successful in converting the ostrogoths because he translated the bible to their language.

_________________
Lord Constable of the Order of the Silvermist and Admin despite Himself
Character Overview:
 
Back to top Go down
View user profile
Mordred
Dragon of the North
avatar

Posts : 2518
Join date : 2011-08-19
Age : 32
Location : London

PostSubject: Re: Vinland: Revelations   Thu Oct 25, 2012 10:20 am

Isabel Tenorio wrote:
You enjoy starting CKII as Harold Harada don't you? tongue

Never tried actually. I did complete a game of EU3 / Victoria II with Norway, where I took North-Eastern America/Canada Razz

EDIT : Speaking of which... just noticed there is a new CK2 -> EU3 Converter out. Time to take Scotland from 1066 to 1925!
Back to top Go down
View user profile http://zatobo.com/
Isabel Tenorio
Knight
avatar

Posts : 1610
Join date : 2012-06-20

PostSubject: Re: Vinland: Revelations   Thu Oct 25, 2012 11:42 am

Have they made a Vicky II -> HoI III conversion yet? I was disappointed when I finished my Ottoman game and couldn't find one.
Back to top Go down
View user profile
Mordred
Dragon of the North
avatar

Posts : 2518
Join date : 2011-08-19
Age : 32
Location : London

PostSubject: Re: Vinland: Revelations   Thu Oct 25, 2012 12:43 pm

I thought they had, not 100% sure though.
Back to top Go down
View user profile http://zatobo.com/
DrSane
Knight
avatar

Posts : 916
Join date : 2011-10-16
Location : Australia

PostSubject: Re: Vinland: Revelations   Thu Oct 25, 2012 1:04 pm

I'm probably wrong but did the vikings call the natives of Vinland "Skraelings"? I'm getting it from AOM so i dont know how accurate it is, but what about calling it: Skraelicism? (mixture of Skraeling and Catholicism).
Back to top Go down
View user profile
Mordred
Dragon of the North
avatar

Posts : 2518
Join date : 2011-08-19
Age : 32
Location : London

PostSubject: Re: Vinland: Revelations   Thu Oct 25, 2012 1:21 pm

Yes they did, but it wouldn't work for this. Scraeling means "Ugly one" or "Coward"... its an insult.

In Vinland there are two groups of natives, the Scaelings (hostile) and Vidar ("People of the Forest", friendly).
Back to top Go down
View user profile http://zatobo.com/
DrSane
Knight
avatar

Posts : 916
Join date : 2011-10-16
Location : Australia

PostSubject: Re: Vinland: Revelations   Thu Oct 25, 2012 1:24 pm

Vidarilicism
Back to top Go down
View user profile
Sponsored content




PostSubject: Re: Vinland: Revelations   

Back to top Go down
 
Vinland: Revelations
View previous topic View next topic Back to top 
Page 3 of 3Go to page : Previous  1, 2, 3
 Similar topics
-
» Resident Evil: Revelations 2
» New (latest) suspect is dead - mccannfiles
» Resident Evil HD remake

Permissions in this forum:You cannot reply to topics in this forum
Prophesy of Pendor : Aftermath :: Sarleon :: The Den of Iniquities-
Jump to: