Heretical Research

Iskar wrote:

i.e. in this case in the form of a voluntary blood sacrifice, since the other gods would be interested in shielding their followers from Erida and the Demons.

To me this just seems halfhearted. Either the gods actively do something, or they don't, and everything we know so far is that the gods participate very very rarely in what is going one, like Roland being the first person Astraea chose to talk to in a long time, or the ruby bow manifesting against Wolfbode. If the gods bestow boons for this kind of sacrifice, then they would certainly reward their priests as well in some form, and soon we will have magic all over the place, which for me would not benefit the game, but take away part of Pendor's rather realistic/low fantasy charm.

Iskar wrote:

An interesting question: Would there be desperate Noldor that try to regain their lost ancestors' magical powers using blood sacrifices?

This idea makes sense to me. Of course we could argue about how big this faction could be, and it most likely would be a renegade faction hunted by the other Noldor, but there are always people thirsting for more power. Of course, as we all know, the Noldor thing is delicate because of SD.

Yeah I second not letting the Gods interfere, because I don't think they'd want to. Astraea herself didn't intervene when Roland, her champion, was killed. Why would she start shielding everyone that sacrifices blood to her? Especially if she's the goddess of justice/everything good and happy? Which goes against the whole idea of blood magic.

How about, if they sacrifice blood in general to the demons, it begins a cycle.

If, A) They are doing it to avoid them, it will bring said person out of their focus. Demons can't possess them, speak to them, or even notice them. I mean notice as in if they are hiding, the demon won't 'smell' the blood, and as such, will be mostly ignored by the demons. But, if the demon sees them, they'll kill them for the heck of it (same with the heretics). However, there's a BIG drawback. If you don't continue to sacrifice blood (say, every week in a ritual), the demons become hyper-alert to you. They'll sense you more clearly and focus on you more than other people, increasing the risk that one will try to attack, possess, or corrupt you. This is the general way for blood magic to be used to make demons not notice you (outside of the eventide). If you're in the Eventide, however, they have found another way. In this case, the boiling blood thing. This doesn't have the 'hyper' sensitivity; this boiling and drinking lasts much longer (say a month); and in general is a more efficient and better solution to the problem.

B) If you want to be noticed as a supplicant, the demon will avoid attacking or harming you because they see the wisdom of a constant supply of blood. You'll probably attract the attention of one specific demon, and can use him for knowledge or other benefits. Demonic quests could reward you with powers, demon artifacts, and demonic weapons. Note that these will be significantly harder and more evil than other quests; and as such, the rewards are greater.

^Both ideas.


@the Noldor thing

It's probably a given, considering there are always factions vying for power. The Noldor have lived and combated demons much longer than humans, so it's a must that they have found out some sort of blood magic. To what extent and how powerful they are is something different, but I imagine Noldor blood is more valuable than human due to the much more potent magic. BUT, the Noldor have found some way of turning Demonic focus off of them (maybe the enchantments?), so the demons are furious and angry and need another source of blood; human blood in this case. So if you want to summon a demonic 'god' (e.g Erida herself, Demon Mordred of Demon Pendor), you will need either a lot of Noldor blood (read: nigh-on impossible) or some Sindari blood (read: extremely nigh-on impossible). Which balances out nicely, and make sure the world is safe and doesn't mess up the RP for PoP 4.

Quote :

Demonic quests could reward you with powers, demon artifacts, and demonic weapons.

What's the point of them? i mean they are powerfull and all but won't you be executed on sight if someone sees you with it?

It's mainly an RP bonus, plus character bonuses as well. You could always say you killed a demon....no one knows of any demon that would willingly give up his weapon to you. (Thats the point of blood magic being exclusively evil; the action of doing it is morally ambiguous, but what you decide to do with it later is different.) My idea of them are that demonic weapons are pretty much Noldor-esque enchantments on weapons that have a particular taint. You could always make it so demonic weapons are cursed in some way. Every kill you do with one is considered a 'sacrifice', so that you don't need to be doing a ritual/risky behavior. Demonic weapons would probably look exactly like normal weapons, but tainted. For any drawbacks, it could 'sap' your life. It could make you go slowly insane. It could slowly ruin your base skills, and make you reliant on it.

It has both RP and meta-game uses, but leans heavily on the RP side. It's kind of hard to make magic and the sort meta-game compatible because of all the RP nature of it.

Hmm if you ain't getting executed just for having it, i guess it could really enhance one's hp, especially if one is not that sane in the first place.

How about we treat the gods as an unconscious force in the world, they can concentrate only briefly to nudge events along, but most of the time they cannot accomplish anything, except say in times of extreme emotional heights.

Lets treat the Daemon world OOC as a realm beyond the pendorians understanding, its simply a place daemons will come from and they kill people. IC however both orders have different understandings of its nature. Perhaps eventide believe that there are just as many good biengs as their are bad, maybe they believe that they can summon these good biengs into there bodies and create their own avatars of astraea to combat the evil daemons. Or that they can control the evil biengs and bend them to their will (Warhammer Radical Inquisitor route)

Regular human sacrifice (over an alter) doesnt 'sate' a daemon but binds them to the users will for as long as the sacrifice allows, but if it runs out the daemon either departs this realm or assumes direct control anchoring it here eternally. This parasite can then summon further of its own kind but only with strong enough hosts (order knights for instance). Weaker daemons are ones summoned quickly, the stronger ones are either created with stronger hosts or after a longer period of sacrifice. Daemons that have taken control can summon into other humans, humans can only summon into themselves. Top tier daemons are made with a large sacrifice and a powerfull host who is also a willing host. Arch Daemons such as eyegrim are only summoned with a king or grandmaster who is willing.

What if the eventide ritual only works when completed over a captured daemonic alter, a few drops of blood will rejuvenate them of all there strength, a wrist gives them the strength of two men, a litre and their shrug of crippling blows that would break normal men. Every sacrifice lasts 13 days and nights. However once a single drop has been spilled, regular sacrifice has to continue, if one session is missed their blood slowly clots and blackens, they turn apathetic and then enraged, turning into beasts that gorge on blood, this happens over years for the lowest sacrifice, but gets quicker the higher the blood sacrifice. The only way to stop the process once it starts is to double the previous sacrifice in half the period of days (Like 2 wrists every 6 and a half days), if missed a second time the process accelerates horrifically and is irreversible. The blessings will still continue this way. Others can take the place of the hosts blood, but only if it is spilled by the hosts hand over an alter as usual.

The dawns reckoning: Blood contains a persons soul and bieng, when incinerated, the evil is left as black soot, destroyed sin in the flesh. The smoke is the freed soul escaping the sin and going to heaven. Man is burnt by flames because of the sin in all men, daemons anchored to the realm are satiaded by living blood, deprived of that they are locked in the hosts corpse unable to free themselves or move their body. A Magnus who is set on the pyre after performing a grand sacrifice, (Persons lives) will leave behind a corpse that will open and close its mouth and weakly grasp its hands, but powerless aside from that. The corpses can be brutally mutilated, but will not tear apart, and in normal conditions are bundled up and taken to a secure place of the dawn. However these deamon corpses will also work as a weaker form of the daemonic alter, however only for the one deamon in the corpse. Spilling blood over it will dissolve the corpse and offer the daemon a new host. A reason why the dawn keeps them under strong lock and key.

edit - im not saying this is lore im just thinking of ideas on what daemons could be

Both the Dawn and Eventide agree that the demon world is a horrible, evil place. The schism isn't because of the different feelings over the demons; it's moreso over what you do with them.

Demons don't anchor eternally, or else there would be Eyegrims all over the place. Usually, if they die, they get sent back to the veil without anything happening to them. That's why demon summoning is extremely cost effective for them (or anchoring themselves here), because they don't 'die', the human does, and they escape. Humans can summon into other humans; that's why they usually strap unwilling people onto altars, spill their blood, then summon before the person fully dies. I don't really like the King or Grandmaster requirement; they're just people. Sure, they may be powerful people, but in essence, they're still humans. Eyegrim was summoned without an extremely powerful person; it may have just been a whole load of sacrifices. I like the idea of stronger demons taking longer times/more sacrifices.

I don't like the idea of the altar being required. The point of blood magic isn't the altar; it's the blood itself that has power. The strength and other benefits come from the demons, pure knights wouldn't get them. If that was the case, then what stops the eventide from sacrificing a whole load of blood, then using the extreme invincible knights to just take over areas? It gets a little OP if the only thing one knight needs to sacrifice is a liter of blood, and he can easily kill five men for 13 days. I do like the idea of the blood clot/blackening thing, but I feel as if counting out every day and such gets a little overcomplicated. I feel as if this should only happen if you have a demon bonded to you, and you don't sacrifice to satiate his need. He/She'll slowly start attacking your mind and body, draining your blood away from the inside (or the magic from it,) turning you into the apathetic blood monster thing you mentioned, or until they gain complete control of your mind.

Demonic corpses are the same as others; they burn in fire. The demons anchor themselves to the human mind/essence; when they complete possession, they're only anchored to the human. Thats why they're such a problem; every demon 'killed' is just sent back to the veil, with the human he was possessing dying. If a demon physically manifests, like completely and with it's entire essence (making it much stronger than ever; e.g Eyegrim wasn't even fully manifested physically, he was just possessing someone and using his immense will/power to keep them alive (that's why the vessel/body looked dead/charred) that's when they should be able to be captured and burned, and that should destroy the demon entirely.

I am just gonna second Varys there, i think it shouldn't matter into who daemon is summoned, peasant or king,if we consider summoning process only.

They all are just humans, with same blood running trough them.( tough i guess have i said it in medieval times, i would be executed rather fast)I think however that it still matter's into who demon is summoned if we consider the final "product's" strength.Let's say daemon enchances strength 2 times, and of course 2 times stronger peasant can't compare with 2 times stronger knight.

Maybe even that daemons possess no actual strength themselves they just got knowledge and control as spirits, what i mean here, is that daemon can control human bodies and use they'r hidden strength way better then humans do themselves(hence the blood consuming from body, or keeping it alive by unknown means, trough power of will).

Ser Varys wrote:

Demons don't anchor eternally, or else there would be Eyegrims all over the place. Usually, if they die, they get sent back to the veil without anything happening to them. That's why demon summoning is extremely cost effective for them (or anchoring themselves here), because they don't 'die', the human does, and they escape.

To clean to quick to easy, this gives it more dimensions if the daemons can only sieze control of a host by binding themselves to this realm, blood to them must be an ecstasy, the wiser ones leave to their own realm when the sacrifice runs out, the greedier ones get locked into the realm, constantly craving more sacrifice. This would explain why heretics survive a long time without many daemons, but once a powerfull takes root with enough followers to keep it sustained it can quickly summon a horrific horde like eyegrim did. I.E. the occasional daemon will be summoned by a magnus, but without the suitable conditions of a large enough population with enough heretics to follow it it will not assume direct control because it will starve to death to quickly.

Ser Varys wrote:

1: Humans can summon into other humans; that's why they usually strap unwilling people onto altars, spill their blood, then summon before the person fully dies. 2: I don't really like the King or Grandmaster requirement; they're just people. Sure, they may be powerful people, but in essence, they're still humans.

1: Then there would be millions of daemons, and if your are a Magnus why would you want to give power to stunted heretic followers? You sure as hell wouldn't want that, or worse daemons with their own will who are likely to lock you in a cage and let their brethren in you take over

2: I meant that as a rough indicator of sheer personal willpower, strength, cunning and ability, not "kings blood is special just cause." Yer it could easily be a commonor, if he was as exceedingly powerful as mordred.

Ser Varys wrote:

I don't like the idea of the altar being required. The point of blood magic isn't the altar; it's the blood itself that has power.

If there's no alter or specific accursed item then wtf stops you from getting possessed whenever you kill someone. POP magic is subtle and something that humans dont have power over, the conduits (alters and the like) keep magic unknown and unusable to most people unless they can channel through the conduit.

Ser Varys wrote:

The strength and other benefits come from the demons, pure knights wouldn't get them. If that was the case, then what stops the eventide from sacrificing a whole load of blood, then using the extreme invincible knights to just take over areas? It gets a little OP if the only thing one knight needs to sacrifice is a liter of blood, and he can easily kill five men for 13 days.

How about that if the sacrifice-e is not killed than a daemon is not summoned into the host, merely dark energies from this 'veil', but i agree the plan i put out seems quite strong for the amount required, however a 70kg body only has 5 litres of blood, and takes about 4-8 weeks to replace the 500ml of blood taken in most blood donations (the red blood cells that is). The vast majority of the order wouldn't do it or know about it, as communicating with daemons is abominable to them (remember the majority of eventide are only there because the dawn was gettin to fuckin mental). So if on the offchance that all of eventide was convinced to sacrifice 1 litre of blood each, they would need thousands of prisoners on constant demand every 13 days, and enough alters to do the sacrifice at the correct time. (assuming that the sacrifice can only be done every 13 days)*
If not they would die of the tainting blood or blood loss. And then of course the moment Pendor see's an order of knights that steal thousands of small folk and bleed them dry they could scorch earth the order and wait for the taint to kill them off.

*perhaps we could make it that only at a specific time every 13 days can a sacrifice be made, during midnight, any other time and the alter cannot connect to the veil

Ser Varys wrote:

I feel as if counting out every day and such gets a little overcomplicated.

I expect the yearning desire is burnt into your conscious, it wouldnt be something as simple as forgetting where the keys were.

Ser Varys wrote:

I feel as if this should only happen if you have a demon bonded to you, and you don't sacrifice to satiate his need. He/She'll slowly start attacking your mind and body, draining your blood away from the inside (or the magic from it,) turning you into the apathetic blood monster thing you mentioned, or until they gain complete control of your mind.

Without the Faustian bargian that is the blood sacrifice and the fear of taint, its too risk free. Perhaps killing a person for sacrifice and summoning a daemon will remove the taint, and then the knight would then have to travel out to the high wilderness (so there is no blood for the daemon) and prey that the daemon decides to leave instead of taking control. Again, there is a way to save yourself, but it is horrifically risky.

Ser Varys wrote:

Demonic corpses are the same as others; they burn in fire. The demons anchor themselves to the human mind/essence; when they complete possession, they're only anchored to the human. Thats why they're such a problem; every demon 'killed' is just sent back to the veil, with the human he was possessing dying. If a demon physically manifests, like completely and with it's entire essence (making it much stronger than ever; e.g Eyegrim wasn't even fully manifested physically, he was just possessing someone and using his immense will/power to keep them alive (that's why the vessel/body looked dead/charred) that's when they should be able to be captured and burned, and that should destroy the demon entirely.

I still like the idea that a daemon that takes control is bound to this realm, and has to constantly feed itself to maintain its strength. That also allows for accidental summonings in ancient battlefields, where daemon husks have been left powerless where they have fallen. I just persanally prefer the idea that you cannot permenantly destroy them, there always ready to leach back in to the world.

1. Thats the point of it being clean, quick and easy. The demons do have an advantage. This isn't a fair fight; it's more one sided, with us on the weakened side. I like the wise one idea though; maybe so that a wise/strong demon would never die, but the greedy/stupid ones have a chance to be captured? They wouldn't be able to move if the human they are possessing dies though. They'd just be inside the body, unable to leave unless they get another host, probably driven mad by blood longing.

2. even Magnuses understand why there shouldn't be millions of demons. They limit themselves; thats why there aren't hordes like Eyegrim's. Even the heretic armies (the general, normal 'heretic' ones) ingame don't have that many demonic magni.

3. Because you aren't sacrificing anything to demons. The blood boiling method isn't a sacrifice; it's a ward. If you intend on being possessed, summoning, or sacrificing, then yes, you need an altar.

4. If we can kill five men each, and we go on a rampage across Pendor, that liter of blood will be found pretty quickly. The Veil isn't anything like demons from ordinary tales; they can survive just as well in sunlight and such. The reason most sacrifices happen at night is to lessen the risk of being discovered. Maybe everyone else except the Eventide(maybe the Dawn too?) believes it only happens at night?

5. I meant the overcomplicated thing as in cutting days in half if you miss a sacrifice, counting out 13 days in RP, maybe make it so it happens autonomously if you decide to?

6. It's not really a Faustian bargain; it's more of a trade. There is much more risk than usual involved; most blood magic leaves you tainted, and if you were found out, expect extreme negative response. It feels like too much of a risk if we all turn into demon monsters and die if we only sacrifice a little bit of blood, as it's benefits lie mostly in R. Demons don't give you immense strength unless possessed, their knowledge only helps if you sacrificed enough.

7. Agreed. That might be why they all start huge wars/battles. They can't just hide and eat people.

@zekic

Maybe they use the inherent blood power to do enhance their own/physical strength?

Yes something like that, but not only that. Daemon could control the all the procceses of the body from within. I guess this way strength of daemon would actually depend on how wise and they are, young daemon's can't control human body as good so they end up more like actual zombies and die easier. However old daemon know's how to fully control the body, the blood.In other word's daemon got no strength by itself, all potential comes from human, just human themselves, can't and manipulate they'r bodies so good, they can't make nerves obsolete, feel no pain, so they can't use magical properties of blood without any altar. I am also advacating the position that the blood is magical here.

Ser Varys wrote:

3. Because you aren't sacrificing anything to demons. The blood boiling method isn't a sacrifice; it's a ward. If you intend on being possessed, summoning, or sacrificing, then yes, you need an altar.

But then what does this ward do? Daemons aren't as disturbingly telepathic like warp daemons from 40k, whispering constantly to those with power. So blocking out thier influence doesnt really do much. Perhaps instead of a daemonic alter, the Eventide ritual is done over a Astraean alter, another conduit to the veil? However unless the ritual actually taps into the energies of this veil then i dont really see the point of it

Ser Varys wrote:

4. If we can kill five men each, and we go on a rampage across Pendor, that liter of blood will be found pretty quickly.

If you actually kill a man then you are possessed by a daemon (if you go on my idea that if the blood sacrifice doesn't kill the victem then you only get energies from the veil not a daemon). Kill five men then you are possessed by a horrifically powerful denizen that would grotesquely mutate you and exert its pressure over ur mind. You would then have to kill five men at midnight 13 days from the last or the daemon takes complete control. Again summoning a daemon is not something the vast majority of the order would accept and would turn against you, especially if you started butchering peasants ( thats why they left the dawn remember? To stop peasant killing).

You wouldnt have more than 500 knights, thats roughly the size of eyegrims horde and that got put down. You would definately cause horror and destruction, but the realm would unit and annahilate the host after the initial shock.

Ser Varys wrote:

Maybe everyone else except the Eventide(maybe the Dawn too?) believes it only happens at night?

I was just saying that becuase i thought it would be better if the conduits can only breach into the veil once every thirteen days (it doesnt have to be thirteen days we could tie it to the phases of the moon or whatever) That way we would't get wierd double sacrifices: i sacrifice a finger on monday and then a wrist on wednesday and then have two different blood pacts (what we could call the lesser version) to worry about

Ser Varys wrote:

5. I meant the overcomplicated thing as in cutting days in half if you miss a sacrifice, counting out 13 days in RP, maybe make it so it happens autonomously if you decide to?

If you did sacrifice it wouldn't be something you had to tell the gm's about after every so and so day.

How about this, for the low level blood tributes, the first sacrifice must be done over an alter, to breach into the veil, but after that the sacrifice renewing the blood pact can be done anyware but as usual only at the alloted time. Maybe instead of 13 it should be 14, to keep it even (every two weeks).

Ser Varys wrote:

6. It's not really a Faustian bargain; it's more of a trade. There is much more risk than usual involved; most blood magic leaves you tainted, and if you were found out, expect extreme negative response. It feels like too much of a risk if we all turn into demon monsters and die if we only sacrifice a little bit of blood, as it's benefits lie mostly in R. Demons don't give you immense strength unless possessed, their knowledge only helps if you sacrificed enough.

You only see a taint if you miss your sacrifice, and with the above change it would be hard to miss it. As the smaller blood pact is only cutting yourself, not over an alter now (except for the first time). So unless you were witnessed for the first time it could be passed off as an act of communion. It is very risky, and it's only something that the top tier of eventide would secretly do, but its done out of desperation to fight against daemons. (eventides story, dawn will say your all possessed of course)

- i just thought of something, the reason why the dawn scorch earths entire villages, they know daemons are in the area, and deprive them of food as the host is too powerful??? perhaps???

- also do we have to call it the veil and do we have to call it blood magic? Makes it less cool if everyone thinks its from dragon age...

Stuff i 've thought up

A blood pact:

Spoiler:

Taint:

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Blood curse:

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