Manifest Destiny (Discussion)

Slowing down title gains and forcing Orders to invest where they want titles. They are primarily a resource drain, so care should be taken on choosing where to build them.

Ok, looking at hex values, I have worked to really, really, really simplify the system, as such hex values can be determined as follows.

Territory + City + Castle(s) + Infrastructure + Additional Income = Hex Value

Territory
Coastal 2
Forest 2
Grasslands 3
Mountains 1
Hills 1
Steppe 2

City
Small Town 2
Large Town 4
Small City 6
Large City 8
Metropolis 10

Castle
Stockade 1
Hill Fort 2
Castle 3
Fortress 4
Citadel 5

Infrastructure
Cart Track 1
Dirt Road 2
Stone Road 4
Paved Road 6

Additional Income
Gold Mine 2
River 1

Therefore a Grasslands (3) with a Large Town (4), a Castle (3), and Dirt Road (2) = Value 12

Now, what exactly is this mysterious Hex Value? Well simply put its how many supplies that province produces.
Each Building requires 1 Supply
Each Pendor Regiment requires 1 Supply (how many militia / regulars / knights per regiment to be decided)
Each Order Regiment requires 1 Supply (how many retainers / knights = a regiment to be decided)

Buildings and troops will require supply to create.
5,000 Denars = 1 Supply and vice versa

Still working on precisely how influence will work, but it will likely not modify supply any more, but rather the powers an Order has in each province.

Resources each have their own use now, and will be allocated to each province depending on what is there already and my whims.
Marble - Required for buildings
Iron - Required for units
Granite - Required for buildings
Timber - Required for units and buildings
Spice - Required for units
Flax - Required for units and buildings

Units and buildings will cost different amounts of resources, the prices to be decided later. There will be no resource upkeep, its too complicated; just a one off payment.

And now... ships, as always become the problem. Should 1 ship = 1 supply? Or make it like 2 Galleys = 1 Supply, while 1 Caravel = 1 Supply?

Is there any point to building more than 1 shipyard? Perhaps let each shipyard provide 1 supply as well?

Thoughts?

Depends how much one supply is...

I'd say, 1 ship = 1 supply, but you can upgrade ships to become trade ships, so they have 2 supplies / ship but reduced speed and maneuverability in battle. Those could also be the big troop transport ships.

I'm unsure about supply and ships at this point.

Obviously, we don't want horde-like fleets and a supply system would work to prevent that. On the other hand, we don't want ships to be so expensive that they cost more than they are really worth.

There, now that I've stated the obvious, I will conclude my post with further not in-depth observations.

Pendor is a land power, so naturally most of us will probably focus on land forces. Until we have determined how many units are in a regiment, and thus how much supply is consumed by our troops, I don't think we talk about fleets very well. I think we're mainly just shooting in the dark with fleets until armies are entirely settled.

Ok, we'll put naval power on hold for the moment.

I've just created the spreadsheet which determines the base value of each hex, and then added up the total for each Order (note this does not take supply usage into account, just base production);

Silvermists : 75
Dragons : 71
Eventide : 50
Griffons : 49
Dawn : 49
Legion : 37
Gauntlet : 22

Is this a fair reflection on the productivity of each Order?

EDIT

Just added in roads;

Silvermists : 92
Dragons : 83
Dawn : 61
Eventide : 57
Griffons : 54
Legion : 48
Gauntlet : 28

I have also given resources to each tile
Grassland = Flax
Forest = Timber
Mountains = Iron / Granite / Marble / Gold
Hills = Iron / Granite / Marble / Gold
Steppe = Spice
Coast = ??

We need one for Coast, I was thinking something like Salt which is +1 supply (which is good for supporting those fleets too...)

Some more figures;

100 Militia = 1 Supply
100 Regulars = 2 Supply
100 Knights = 3 Supply

20 Order Centurions = 1 Supply (calculated below as 5 Supply for 100)
25 Order Knights = 1 Supply (calculated below as 4 Supply for 100)
33 Order Retainers = 1 Supply (calculated below as 3 Supply for 100)

Now taking current building upkeep and unit upkeep, this leaves each Order with;

Dragons : 9
Dawn : 7
Legion : 2
Griffons : -1
Gauntlets : -2
Eventide : -2
Silvermists : -8

Bear in mind these use current building upkeep, and unit upkeep is rounded up (for Order units) this will be tweaked as there are far fewer buildings now than there were, and some Orders were just 2 men over and had to pay a whole supply for them. Still, those figures are beginning to look more like what I was aiming for, so I think we're getting closer.

Quick questions:

1) Can we store supplies?
2) Can we buy and sell supplies?
3) Can we steal supplies?

By the way, if not salt, you could make

Coast: oil

Getting oil from whales and fishes, for example.

1. Yes
2. Yes
3. Yes

Interesting thought. Would Oil have a use, or just provide the +1 supply?

Incidentally, I am considering allowing multiple instances of some buildings (For instance resource producers, and replace some of the current resources with unique bonuses / buildings like the Universities). Province building limits will be determined by their local Supply production (ie they can only maintain as many buildings as they can locally support). Unit upkeep is global.

It depends on which direction you would like to go (and the nature of the oil).

- it could be a luxury good, with similar function of candles.
- or work as a generic non-explosive flammable oil.
- or even, I don't know, fertilizer. Perhaps Pendorian fishes have that property.

Whale oil is a luxury. Fish oil makes you live longer.

Expressed my characters opinions boldly.

Most fish can be used as fertiliser.

Mordred wrote:

Ok, we'll put naval power on hold for the moment.

I've just created the spreadsheet which determines the base value of each hex, and then added up the total for each Order (note this does not take supply usage into account, just base production);

Silvermists : 75
Dragons : 71
Eventide : 50
Griffons : 49
Dawn : 49
Legion : 37
Gauntlet : 22

Is this a fair reflection on the productivity of each Order?

EDIT

Just added in roads;

Silvermists : 92
Dragons : 83
Dawn : 61
Eventide : 57
Griffons : 54
Legion : 48
Gauntlet : 28

I fear it does not really reflect things as they were before. The Dragon's surplus was negative (-1540) and even with their additional income they were behind the Griffons and had no more than half of the Silvermist income. The Dragon does have a lot of hexes but most of them were loss-making, since they had not built too many economy stabilising buildings. Perhaps one can give a fix bonus to hexes depending on the number of supply relevant buildings constructed there (i.e. Say a hex has, in addition to the buildings we will keep, a Farm II and a Flax Farm I, then it gets a fix, unchangeable +3 supply bonus. The economic use of both buildings are removed in the new system and what stays is a fix bonus that indicates the wealth/state of development of the hex.)

Mordred wrote:

Some more figures;

100 Militia = 1 Supply
100 Regulars = 2 Supply
100 Knights = 3 Supply

20 Order Centurions = 1 Supply (calculated below as 5 Supply for 100)
25 Order Knights = 1 Supply (calculated below as 4 Supply for 100)
33 Order Retainers = 1 Supply (calculated below as 3 Supply for 100)

Now taking current building upkeep and unit upkeep, this leaves each Order with;

Dragons : 9
Dawn : 7
Legion : 2
Griffons : -1
Gauntlets : -2
Eventide : -2
Silvermists : -8

Bear in mind these use current building upkeep, and unit upkeep is rounded up (for Order units) this will be tweaked as there are far fewer buildings now than there were, and some Orders were just 2 men over and had to pay a whole supply for them. Still, those figures are beginning to look more like what I was aiming for, so I think we're getting closer.

As it seems, orders are now punished for building economic assets in the past. I - forgive me my selfishness - looked into the Silvermist numbers with the help of the latest spreadsheet and it turned out that
a) currently roads require supply, too, i.e. a cart track is useless, since it gives one supply and requires one supply
b) up from terrain value 4 (forests and hills) most buildings like mines, flax farms, shrines, craftsmen, etc. at least compensated their own upkeep and might even give some additional surplus. Now they only cost one supply and don't give anything back in that regard. I'm not sure what role you have in mind for simple farms and windmills and other purely economic assets, but for the time being you still counted them in, costing supply, without giving any bonuses.
c) The ranking after supply has been subtracted seen above shows a certain weakness of the new system should we use it as it is now: The Dragon holdings were among the least developed (even after you allowed them buildings for the turns they missed) but just because of this they now have the highest supply surplus, because they have few buildings to supply while the other orders that invested into economic assets (e.g. the Eventide which had a healthy surplus of ~4000 before) are making losses, since their buildings cost supply but do not give anything in return.

It all leads me back to my previous post: I suggest taking into account the old economic assets in the form of a fix bonus for each hex. Each building that produced a positive surplus formerly might give +1, since even if we just remove the no more used economic buildings all the time and money invested in them will just be lost and give orders that invested prudently in regard to the old system a huge disadvantage.

Good suggestions, I had not thought of the things like Cart Tracks being pointless with the current setup. I'm going to be away for the next few days (or rather insanely busy, game developer conference season, yay!) but will try and rebalance this when I get back from that.

Does the kingdom have fixed borders? I am assuming only the hexes indicated in the metagame are officially part of the kingdom, right?

Correct, and Pendor has no outside colonies, so that is pretty much "it".

No need to hurry with these answer:

It seems that every major nation has some sort of personality. Mettenheim's, Veccavia's and Barclay's are somewhat clear. So what would be Pendor's peculiarity in the eyes of foreign cultures? Is it seem as a backward kingdom? Or is it the fact that the king has to deal with far too many different minor cultures (Sarleon, Ravenstern, Noldor, Dawn, Silvermists, etc.), making the land look like a patchwork for the others?

Mostly that it was until recently a very divided (and weak) nation, however some powers; Barclay in particular view their unity with concern while Mettenheim see them as a very welcome counter balance to Barclay's power.

Otherwise yes, it is very backward though it remains a military power and their Knightly Orders are rightly feared (or at least respected) by the others, and this might be why the King keeps them around...

So the king has in his hands a bomb that might explode and doom his kingdom anytime. And that bomb may actually be what prevents others from attacking him. Have we seen that before? *coughcough1962cough*

Pretty much.

we should invade barclay.

We are Pendor's nukes.

and nukes should be used to bring wealth and technology to pendor!

I pray that you never become head of government of one of the nuclear powers...