| Just talking | |
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+28Sir Thash Kor Alaric Reiner MordKaiser87 tobberman Sir Arceon dowpride Hetzau Zekic Thunion of Laria Psychozoa MitchyMatt Aldric of Marleons Ser Varys Kamos DiabloDude Marcus the Shadow Fighter Iskar Pravenstern Sir Aranor Datedsandwich Tubby McChubbles Laisha Mordred Sir Haegon Sir Celdiur Moriendor Isabel Tenorio Curanthir Saeros Slopsen 32 posters |
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Slopsen Knight
Posts : 918 Join date : 2011-10-16
| Subject: Re: Just talking Wed Oct 31, 2012 11:38 am | |
| Depends. Would killing the militia then turn locals against the peacekeeping effort. There would be no point saving several civilians if it creates martyrs of the militia and radicalises thousands of others and escalates tension. If its a simple matter of saving lives then yes I would, just about every single soldier would too, unless for the reason above. However if the above reason did not apply I wouldn't wait for permission to engage. I'd simply attack and say they fired first afterwards and that there was no time to radio in. Bureaucracy has zero place in a war zone. | |
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Sir Aranor Grandmaster
Posts : 1918 Join date : 2011-08-20 Age : 29
| Subject: Re: Just talking Wed Oct 31, 2012 11:42 am | |
| - Saeros wrote:
- While nothing exciting is happening, let me ask you an OOC question:
Imagine you are an UN peacekeeper serving in Somalia, year 2028. Your squad witnesses local militia forces shooting down civilians by the dozens and firing mortars at a hospital. You ask your superior on the radio for permission to engage. He asks you "are you taking fire?".
You know that permission will be denied if you are not taking fire. But your mates have the same mind, and would be willing to lie and report that some bullets flew in your general direction, only for having the chance of stopping the massacre.
The question: what would you do? Lie. I wouldn't be able to live with myself not intervening. | |
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dowpride Knight
Posts : 375 Join date : 2011-09-01
| Subject: Re: Just talking Wed Oct 31, 2012 12:59 pm | |
| i would open fire, and make sure they were dead. then go help the civvies. | |
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Isabel Tenorio Knight
Posts : 1610 Join date : 2012-06-20
| Subject: Re: Just talking Wed Oct 31, 2012 2:40 pm | |
| And then the UN Peacekeepers will not be allowed/invited in other countries. Allowing observers is one thing, letting a military force operate in 'your' sovereign territory is quite another in these complex situations. Somalia may be in quazi-anarchy, but that is the exception. Perhaps that seems like the stereotype of 'greater good' justifying immediate wrong, but long-term legitimacy is important for entities involved in conflict resolution... even if they aren't directly trying to resolve the conflict. | |
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Sir Aranor Grandmaster
Posts : 1918 Join date : 2011-08-20 Age : 29
| Subject: Re: Just talking Wed Oct 31, 2012 8:06 pm | |
| Not if they said they were fired upon. | |
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Zekic Thunion of Laria Knight
Posts : 385 Join date : 2012-06-21 Age : 30 Location : Lithuania
| Subject: Re: Just talking Wed Oct 31, 2012 8:43 pm | |
| - Quote :
- While nothing exciting is happening, let me ask you an OOC question:
Imagine you are an UN peacekeeper serving in Somalia, year 2028. Your squad witnesses local militia forces shooting down civilians by the dozens and firing mortars at a hospital. You ask your superior on the radio for permission to engage. He asks you "are you taking fire?".
You know that permission will be denied if you are not taking fire. But your mates have the same mind, and would be willing to lie and report that some bullets flew in your general direction, only for having the chance of stopping the massacre.
The question: what would you do?
Trying to be realistic, and knowing me i would be either too afraid to make a decsion, or would just go "screw this, CHARGEEE" i am not the bravest person, especially when it comes to such things, but watching innocent die could easely give me an adrenaline rush, short one but i think that would be more then enough. | |
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Saeros Voice of the Nobility
Posts : 1863 Join date : 2011-08-22 Location : Avernus
| Subject: Re: Just talking Wed Oct 31, 2012 8:45 pm | |
| Precisely. But there's fog of war here and you can't see the big picture or foresee the exact outcome of those particular actions.
Only later I realized that this is not a right vs. wrong question (or compassion vs. bureaucracy). The issue is that you must decide what is more important: your personal moral values, or the legitimacy of your entire institution, and choose which one will override the other.
I don't think there's a right answer, but lying seems to me to be the best choice: you sacrifice part of your moral values, preserve the legitimacy, and still save those people.
PS: This is something peacekeepers usually report and have a hard time dealing with, and it's far more common than it may appear. | |
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Iskar Peasant turned Lord
Posts : 4142 Join date : 2011-08-19 Age : 35 Location : Germany
| Subject: Re: Just talking Wed Oct 31, 2012 11:23 pm | |
| My newspaper told me about Sandy 's devastating effects on the north-east of the US. I hope all those forumites living around there are alright. | |
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Marcus the Shadow Fighter Grandmaster
Posts : 1148 Join date : 2011-08-20 Location : A windy cavern somewhere near Helsinki
| Subject: Re: Just talking Wed Oct 31, 2012 11:30 pm | |
| I read about it too. There is one good side to it, though... It cleaned all of the coasts better than a year of cleaning could have. | |
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Isabel Tenorio Knight
Posts : 1610 Join date : 2012-06-20
| Subject: Re: Just talking Thu Nov 01, 2012 12:13 am | |
| Except for sand bars being moved several blocks inland. >.<
The water can't even recede in some areas because of it. | |
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Saeros Voice of the Nobility
Posts : 1863 Join date : 2011-08-22 Location : Avernus
| Subject: Re: Just talking Thu Nov 01, 2012 12:15 am | |
| Not much cleaner. Those waters are quite polluted.
It's a good thing that the region was able to prepare itself in time.
Last edited by Saeros on Thu Nov 01, 2012 1:25 am; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : water ---> waters) | |
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Psychozoa Knight
Posts : 742 Join date : 2011-09-06 Age : 37 Location : Germany
| Subject: Re: Just talking Thu Nov 01, 2012 12:22 am | |
| The coast is clean but wait until the current takes all the plastics to the pacific and this Garbage "Island" gets even bigger. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Garbage_islandAnother on for you: You are at the switch of a railroad. From the left comes a train which is too fast to be stopped. on the right the way splits in two. On the bottom part of the track are 5 Railroad Workers who don't see the train coming. On the top one is only one Worker. If you don't do anything the Train kills the 5 Workers, if you pull the switch the train kills the single worker. You don't know any of the Workers. What do you do? Continue reading only if you got an answer:Now think again. The 5 Workers stay the same but on the top track is you Son/Daughter/Wife/Brother. ethics is pretty difficult to determine I think. It always depends on the Persons involved and the situation you are in. Peer pressuce and local laws also apply but only of you have time to think about everything. And in War you don't have that time. | |
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Saeros Voice of the Nobility
Posts : 1863 Join date : 2011-08-22 Location : Avernus
| Subject: Re: Just talking Thu Nov 01, 2012 1:44 am | |
| One lie that society tells you is that there is only one kind of correct ethical behavior. In reality, definition of what is right or wrong is directly dependant on the ethical theories to which one subscribes. Even this previous statement may be challenged, since there are schools of thought that say ethical principles should not be questioned. It's complicated, but it helps when we think critically. I'd certainly think twice before joining the peacekeepers | |
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Psychozoa Knight
Posts : 742 Join date : 2011-09-06 Age : 37 Location : Germany
| Subject: Re: Just talking Thu Nov 01, 2012 4:19 am | |
| Critical thinking is always encouraged. The problem with having time to think about a problem is that most people think too long and so never do anything thats risky or complicated.
I have to make critical decisions nearly every second at work but when it comes to choosing a place to eat for dinner it nearly takes half an hour.
It always depends on the surroundings, at work I have to make the decisions based on my knowledge and all the information I get in an instant. And the decision to go eat somewhere is not crucial( if I'm not close to starvation).
Ethics also depends on the society you were raised in. For some cultures it is perfectly fine to eat other human beings.
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Saeros Voice of the Nobility
Posts : 1863 Join date : 2011-08-22 Location : Avernus
| Subject: Re: Just talking Thu Nov 01, 2012 5:16 am | |
| And you mentioned you have shifts. I take it that you're either doctor, a paramedic, or a police officer. If so, there are short courses of applied ethics specifically aimed and taught by people in these fields, if you're interested. They're usually very practice-oriented. | |
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Kamos Grandmaster
Posts : 631 Join date : 2011-08-19 Location : Shapeshte
| Subject: Re: Just talking Thu Nov 01, 2012 5:36 am | |
| - Psychozoa wrote:
- The coast is clean but wait until the current takes all the plastics to the pacific and this Garbage "Island" gets even bigger.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Garbage_island
Another on for you:
You are at the switch of a railroad. From the left comes a train which is too fast to be stopped. on the right the way splits in two. On the bottom part of the track are 5 Railroad Workers who don't see the train coming. On the top one is only one Worker. If you don't do anything the Train kills the 5 Workers, if you pull the switch the train kills the single worker. You don't know any of the Workers.
What do you do?
Continue reading only if you got an answer:
Now think again. The 5 Workers stay the same but on the top track is you Son/Daughter/Wife/Brother.
ethics is pretty difficult to determine I think. It always depends on the Persons involved and the situation you are in. Peer pressuce and local laws also apply but only of you have time to think about everything. And in War you don't have that time. Shoot the one person with a crossbow so they fall off then pull the switch. Order can be reversed. And don't you dare say I don't have a crossbow on me. I always carry them near trains. | |
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Psychozoa Knight
Posts : 742 Join date : 2011-09-06 Age : 37 Location : Germany
| Subject: Re: Just talking Thu Nov 01, 2012 6:30 am | |
| - Saeros wrote:
- And you mentioned you have shifts. I take it that you're either doctor, a paramedic, or a police officer. If so, there are short courses of applied ethics specifically aimed and taught by people in these fields, if you're interested. They're usually very practice-oriented.
Nothing of the above. I'm an Air Traffic Controller. So making decisions is my job, not many of them are influenced by moral choices but still one has to determine if the risk you take by giving orders makes up for the possible gain of time (time=money). And that very quickly and often. @Kamos: I would never argue with a Griffon unless I get Iskar to defend me at the Trial... | |
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Saeros Voice of the Nobility
Posts : 1863 Join date : 2011-08-22 Location : Avernus
| Subject: Re: Just talking Thu Nov 01, 2012 6:51 am | |
| It's reasonable to assume that at some point you may have had the lives of some of us in your hands. Since we're all here, we could say you did a fine job | |
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Psychozoa Knight
Posts : 742 Join date : 2011-09-06 Age : 37 Location : Germany
| Subject: Re: Just talking Thu Nov 01, 2012 7:23 am | |
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Slopsen Knight
Posts : 918 Join date : 2011-10-16
| Subject: Re: Just talking Thu Nov 01, 2012 11:37 am | |
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Saeros Voice of the Nobility
Posts : 1863 Join date : 2011-08-22 Location : Avernus
| Subject: Re: Just talking Fri Nov 02, 2012 12:09 am | |
| Holy sugar coated morning cereal! Zekics punishment plis? | |
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Isabel Tenorio Knight
Posts : 1610 Join date : 2012-06-20
| Subject: Re: Just talking Fri Nov 02, 2012 12:15 am | |
| Not until the Silvermist return their overdue library books.
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Saeros Voice of the Nobility
Posts : 1863 Join date : 2011-08-22 Location : Avernus
| Subject: Re: Just talking Fri Nov 02, 2012 12:17 am | |
| They're mine now! All mine! | |
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Isabel Tenorio Knight
Posts : 1610 Join date : 2012-06-20
| Subject: Re: Just talking Fri Nov 02, 2012 12:18 am | |
| Other people want to read the Idiot's Guide to Plotting too, you know. /crossarms | |
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Mordred Dragon of the North
Posts : 2518 Join date : 2011-08-19 Age : 38 Location : London
| Subject: Re: Just talking Fri Nov 02, 2012 2:11 am | |
| Ha! Just noticed something. A while ago we thought the Forum was auto-deleting the early posts in this thread, but I just saw a locked thread further down the page, which is in fact the self-filling archive of old posts; https://popaftermath.forumotion.com/t59-just-talking-archivedSame has happened with the Throne Room OOC thread. | |
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