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DrSane
Knight
DrSane

Posts : 916
Join date : 2011-10-16
Location : Australia

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PostSubject: Re: Just talking   Just talking - Page 19 EmptyWed Oct 31, 2012 11:38 am

Depends. Would killing the militia then turn locals against the peacekeeping effort. There would be no point saving several civilians if it creates martyrs of the militia and radicalises thousands of others and escalates tension. If its a simple matter of saving lives then yes I would, just about every single soldier would too, unless for the reason above. However if the above reason did not apply I wouldn't wait for permission to engage. I'd simply attack and say they fired first afterwards and that there was no time to radio in. Bureaucracy has zero place in a war zone.
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Sir Aranor
Grandmaster
Sir Aranor

Posts : 1918
Join date : 2011-08-20
Age : 24

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PostSubject: Re: Just talking   Just talking - Page 19 EmptyWed Oct 31, 2012 11:42 am

Saeros wrote:
While nothing exciting is happening, let me ask you an OOC question:

Imagine you are an UN peacekeeper serving in Somalia, year 2028. Your squad witnesses local militia forces shooting down civilians by the dozens and firing mortars at a hospital. You ask your superior on the radio for permission to engage. He asks you "are you taking fire?".

You know that permission will be denied if you are not taking fire. But your mates have the same mind, and would be willing to lie and report that some bullets flew in your general direction, only for having the chance of stopping the massacre.

The question: what would you do?

Lie. I wouldn't be able to live with myself not intervening.


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dowpride
Knight
dowpride

Posts : 375
Join date : 2011-09-01

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PostSubject: Re: Just talking   Just talking - Page 19 EmptyWed Oct 31, 2012 12:59 pm

i would open fire, and make sure they were dead. then go help the civvies.
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Isabel Tenorio
Knight
Isabel Tenorio

Posts : 1610
Join date : 2012-06-20

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PostSubject: Re: Just talking   Just talking - Page 19 EmptyWed Oct 31, 2012 2:40 pm

And then the UN Peacekeepers will not be allowed/invited in other countries. Allowing observers is one thing, letting a military force operate in 'your' sovereign territory is quite another in these complex situations. Somalia may be in quazi-anarchy, but that is the exception. Perhaps that seems like the stereotype of 'greater good' justifying immediate wrong, but long-term legitimacy is important for entities involved in conflict resolution... even if they aren't directly trying to resolve the conflict.
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Sir Aranor
Grandmaster
Sir Aranor

Posts : 1918
Join date : 2011-08-20
Age : 24

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PostSubject: Re: Just talking   Just talking - Page 19 EmptyWed Oct 31, 2012 8:06 pm

Not if they said they were fired upon.

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Zekic Thunion of Laria
Knight
Zekic Thunion of Laria

Posts : 385
Join date : 2012-06-21
Age : 25
Location : Lithuania

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PostSubject: Re: Just talking   Just talking - Page 19 EmptyWed Oct 31, 2012 8:43 pm

Quote :
While nothing exciting is happening, let me ask you an OOC question:

Imagine you are an UN peacekeeper serving in Somalia, year 2028. Your squad witnesses local militia forces shooting down civilians by the dozens and firing mortars at a hospital. You ask your superior on the radio for permission to engage. He asks you "are you taking fire?".

You know that permission will be denied if you are not taking fire. But your mates have the same mind, and would be willing to lie and report that some bullets flew in your general direction, only for having the chance of stopping the massacre.

The question: what would you do?
Trying to be realistic, and knowing me i would be either too afraid to make a decsion, or would just go "screw this, CHARGEEE" i am not the bravest person, especially when it comes to such things, but watching innocent die could easely give me an adrenaline rush, short one but i think that would be more then enough.
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Saeros
Voice of the Nobility
Saeros

Posts : 1863
Join date : 2011-08-22
Location : Avernus

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PostSubject: Re: Just talking   Just talking - Page 19 EmptyWed Oct 31, 2012 8:45 pm

Precisely. But there's fog of war here and you can't see the big picture or foresee the exact outcome of those particular actions.

Only later I realized that this is not a right vs. wrong question (or compassion vs. bureaucracy). The issue is that you must decide what is more important: your personal moral values, or the legitimacy of your entire institution, and choose which one will override the other.

I don't think there's a right answer, but lying seems to me to be the best choice: you sacrifice part of your moral values, preserve the legitimacy, and still save those people.

PS: This is something peacekeepers usually report and have a hard time dealing with, and it's far more common than it may appear.
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Iskar
Peasant turned Lord
Iskar

Posts : 4142
Join date : 2011-08-19
Age : 31
Location : Germany

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PostSubject: Re: Just talking   Just talking - Page 19 EmptyWed Oct 31, 2012 11:23 pm

My newspaper told me about Sandy 's devastating effects on the north-east of the US. I hope all those forumites living around there are alright.

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Marcus the Shadow Fighter
Grandmaster
Marcus the Shadow Fighter

Posts : 1148
Join date : 2011-08-20
Location : A windy cavern somewhere near Helsinki

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PostSubject: Re: Just talking   Just talking - Page 19 EmptyWed Oct 31, 2012 11:30 pm

I read about it too.

There is one good side to it, though...

It cleaned all of the coasts better than a year of cleaning could have. Wink

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Isabel Tenorio
Knight
Isabel Tenorio

Posts : 1610
Join date : 2012-06-20

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PostSubject: Re: Just talking   Just talking - Page 19 EmptyThu Nov 01, 2012 12:13 am

Except for sand bars being moved several blocks inland. >.<

The water can't even recede in some areas because of it.
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Saeros
Voice of the Nobility
Saeros

Posts : 1863
Join date : 2011-08-22
Location : Avernus

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PostSubject: Re: Just talking   Just talking - Page 19 EmptyThu Nov 01, 2012 12:15 am

Not much cleaner. Those waters are quite polluted.

It's a good thing that the region was able to prepare itself in time.


Last edited by Saeros on Thu Nov 01, 2012 1:25 am; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : water ---> waters)
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Psychozoa
Knight
Psychozoa

Posts : 742
Join date : 2011-09-06
Age : 33
Location : Germany

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PostSubject: Re: Just talking   Just talking - Page 19 EmptyThu Nov 01, 2012 12:22 am

The coast is clean but wait until the current takes all the plastics to the pacific and this Garbage "Island" gets even bigger.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Garbage_island

Another on for you:

You are at the switch of a railroad. From the left comes a train which is too fast to be stopped. on the right the way splits in two. On the bottom part of the track are 5 Railroad Workers who don't see the train coming. On the top one is only one Worker. If you don't do anything the Train kills the 5 Workers, if you pull the switch the train kills the single worker. You don't know any of the Workers.

What do you do?

Continue reading only if you got an answer:






Now think again. The 5 Workers stay the same but on the top track is you Son/Daughter/Wife/Brother.


ethics is pretty difficult to determine I think. It always depends on the Persons involved and the situation you are in. Peer pressuce and local laws also apply but only of you have time to think about everything. And in War you don't have that time.

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Saeros
Voice of the Nobility
Saeros

Posts : 1863
Join date : 2011-08-22
Location : Avernus

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PostSubject: Re: Just talking   Just talking - Page 19 EmptyThu Nov 01, 2012 1:44 am

One lie that society tells you is that there is only one kind of correct ethical behavior. In reality, definition of what is right or wrong is directly dependant on the ethical theories to which one subscribes.
Even this previous statement may be challenged, since there are schools of thought that say ethical principles should not be questioned.

It's complicated, but it helps when we think critically. I'd certainly think twice before joining the peacekeepers Very Happy
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Psychozoa
Knight
Psychozoa

Posts : 742
Join date : 2011-09-06
Age : 33
Location : Germany

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PostSubject: Re: Just talking   Just talking - Page 19 EmptyThu Nov 01, 2012 4:19 am

Critical thinking is always encouraged. The problem with having time to think about a problem is that most people think too long and so never do anything thats risky or complicated.

I have to make critical decisions nearly every second at work but when it comes to choosing a place to eat for dinner it nearly takes half an hour.

It always depends on the surroundings, at work I have to make the decisions based on my knowledge and all the information I get in an instant. And the decision to go eat somewhere is not crucial( if I'm not close to starvation).

Ethics also depends on the society you were raised in. For some cultures it is perfectly fine to eat other human beings.







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Jareth Meraxes, the Titan, Son of Titus of Barclay, Order of the Shadow Legion
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Saeros
Voice of the Nobility
Saeros

Posts : 1863
Join date : 2011-08-22
Location : Avernus

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PostSubject: Re: Just talking   Just talking - Page 19 EmptyThu Nov 01, 2012 5:16 am

And you mentioned you have shifts. I take it that you're either doctor, a paramedic, or a police officer. If so, there are short courses of applied ethics specifically aimed and taught by people in these fields, if you're interested. They're usually very practice-oriented.
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Kamos
Grandmaster
Kamos

Posts : 629
Join date : 2011-08-19
Location : Shapeshte

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PostSubject: Re: Just talking   Just talking - Page 19 EmptyThu Nov 01, 2012 5:36 am

Psychozoa wrote:
The coast is clean but wait until the current takes all the plastics to the pacific and this Garbage "Island" gets even bigger.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Garbage_island

Another on for you:

You are at the switch of a railroad. From the left comes a train which is too fast to be stopped. on the right the way splits in two. On the bottom part of the track are 5 Railroad Workers who don't see the train coming. On the top one is only one Worker. If you don't do anything the Train kills the 5 Workers, if you pull the switch the train kills the single worker. You don't know any of the Workers.

What do you do?

Continue reading only if you got an answer:






Now think again. The 5 Workers stay the same but on the top track is you Son/Daughter/Wife/Brother.


ethics is pretty difficult to determine I think. It always depends on the Persons involved and the situation you are in. Peer pressuce and local laws also apply but only of you have time to think about everything. And in War you don't have that time.

Shoot the one person with a crossbow so they fall off then pull the switch. Order can be reversed.
And don't you dare say I don't have a crossbow on me. I always carry them near trains.

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Saeros wrote:
If possible, ground that on former actions in the RP (e.g. Kamos punched a lot of important people, hence the unarmed combat perk).
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Psychozoa
Knight
Psychozoa

Posts : 742
Join date : 2011-09-06
Age : 33
Location : Germany

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PostSubject: Re: Just talking   Just talking - Page 19 EmptyThu Nov 01, 2012 6:30 am

Saeros wrote:
And you mentioned you have shifts. I take it that you're either doctor, a paramedic, or a police officer. If so, there are short courses of applied ethics specifically aimed and taught by people in these fields, if you're interested. They're usually very practice-oriented.

Nothing of the above. I'm an Air Traffic Controller. So making decisions is my job, not many of them are influenced by moral choices but still one has to determine if the risk you take by giving orders makes up for the possible gain of time (time=money). And that very quickly and often.




@Kamos: I would never argue with a Griffon unless I get Iskar to defend me at the Trial...

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Jareth Meraxes, the Titan, Son of Titus of Barclay, Order of the Shadow Legion
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Saeros
Voice of the Nobility
Saeros

Posts : 1863
Join date : 2011-08-22
Location : Avernus

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PostSubject: Re: Just talking   Just talking - Page 19 EmptyThu Nov 01, 2012 6:51 am

It's reasonable to assume that at some point you may have had the lives of some of us in your hands. Since we're all here, we could say you did a fine job Very Happy
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Psychozoa
Knight
Psychozoa

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PostSubject: Re: Just talking   Just talking - Page 19 EmptyThu Nov 01, 2012 7:23 am

Thanks, I appreciate it.

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Jareth Meraxes, the Titan, Son of Titus of Barclay, Order of the Shadow Legion
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DrSane
Knight
DrSane

Posts : 916
Join date : 2011-10-16
Location : Australia

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PostSubject: Re: Just talking   Just talking - Page 19 EmptyThu Nov 01, 2012 11:37 am

Psychozoa wrote:
@Kamos: I would never argue with a Griffon unless I get Iskar to defend me at the Trial...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LKpnZ7cwWuY&feature=fvwp
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Saeros
Voice of the Nobility
Saeros

Posts : 1863
Join date : 2011-08-22
Location : Avernus

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PostSubject: Re: Just talking   Just talking - Page 19 EmptyFri Nov 02, 2012 12:09 am

Holy sugar coated morning cereal! Zekics punishment plis?
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Isabel Tenorio
Knight
Isabel Tenorio

Posts : 1610
Join date : 2012-06-20

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PostSubject: Re: Just talking   Just talking - Page 19 EmptyFri Nov 02, 2012 12:15 am

Not until the Silvermist return their overdue library books.


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Saeros
Voice of the Nobility
Saeros

Posts : 1863
Join date : 2011-08-22
Location : Avernus

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PostSubject: Re: Just talking   Just talking - Page 19 EmptyFri Nov 02, 2012 12:17 am

They're mine now! All mine!
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Isabel Tenorio
Knight
Isabel Tenorio

Posts : 1610
Join date : 2012-06-20

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PostSubject: Re: Just talking   Just talking - Page 19 EmptyFri Nov 02, 2012 12:18 am

Other people want to read the Idiot's Guide to Plotting too, you know. /crossarms
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Mordred
Dragon of the North
Mordred

Posts : 2518
Join date : 2011-08-19
Age : 34
Location : London

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PostSubject: Re: Just talking   Just talking - Page 19 EmptyFri Nov 02, 2012 2:11 am

Ha! Just noticed something. A while ago we thought the Forum was auto-deleting the early posts in this thread, but I just saw a locked thread further down the page, which is in fact the self-filling archive of old posts;

https://popaftermath.forumotion.com/t59-just-talking-archived

Same has happened with the Throne Room OOC thread.
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