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 Pendorian Religions

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Iskar
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PostSubject: Pendorian Religions   Sun Sep 04, 2011 9:17 am

How about religion in Pendor?

Is the grandmaster of the Dawn also the clerical head of the church of Astraea?
Are there institutionalized churches of the other deities? How much influence do they have? Have they nuntii at the royal court?
In the game, Eventide is allied to the heretics (their parties help each other) and the heretics serve Erida Occisor, so does the Eventide do so, too?

I think it would be fairly interesting to have some religion based quarrels in Pendor for the king and the orders to deal with. I'd really like to see how the crown of Pendor would react to a pre-30-years-war situation. Wink

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PostSubject: Re: Pendorian Religions   Sun Sep 04, 2011 9:30 am

I know that the large majority of the Eventide worship Astraea. I think the main reason they're allies with the heretics in-game is that overall they are an evil order. Just... Not everyone in it is aware.

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PostSubject: Re: Pendorian Religions   Tue Sep 06, 2011 12:07 am

I put some thought into this subject, and here are my suggestions:

  • Church of Astraea - Led by the Grand Inquisitor of Valonbray, closely tied to the Order of the Dawn as their military arm. Present all over Pendor, but most prominent in the West.
  • Church of Eunomia Stabilitis - Led by the Archbishop of Sarleon, loosely tied to the Order of the Griffon by their common goal of stability and thus sopport of the crown. Present all over Pendor, mostly in former Sarleon.
  • Church of Damia Provideo - Led by the Pontiff of Ethos, loosely tied to the Shadow Legion because of their common past in the Empire. Mainly present in the former Empire and surrounding lands
  • Church of Ullr Vetr - Led by the Archdeacon of Poinsbruk, tied to the Silvermist and Clarion Call Rangers. Prominent in former eastern Ravenstern, Laria and the lands adjacent to the Jatu steppes.
  • Church of Thallo Ver Shures - Led by the Matriarch of Jarviksholm, prominent and influential among the peasantry in western Pendor, as they care about the peasants' everyday problems.
  • Church of Vata - Led by the Highpriest of Torbah, loosely tied to the Windriders, only present in the D'Shar steppes.

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PostSubject: Re: Pendorian Religions   Tue Sep 06, 2011 12:19 am

Shadow Legion, i believe, is not religious at all. But that is for mordred to decide.
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PostSubject: Re: Pendorian Religions   Tue Sep 06, 2011 12:37 am

I put the Griffons down as being 100% secular in nature.

The members might be religious, but the Order itself has no official affiliations with any religious body.

For example, a new church doctrine wouldn't affect the Griffons at all, unless commanded by the king to obey it.

While a church may work towards stability in the realm, it is of a different kind. Specifically, it would be social stability for the church, and political/malitary stability for the Griffons.

I like holy warriors/non-secular knighthood orders, but I believe there should be a healthy mix of secular and non-secular.

Pendor and the King are the Griffon's religion.

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PostSubject: Re: Pendorian Religions   Tue Sep 06, 2011 1:19 am

Interesting, nice ideas. Only one which gave me pause was Ullr Vetr, as I doubt that the Silvermists would have much interest in him, though I can see why the Clarion Call would consider him a patron. I would say that Ullr Vetr is tied more closely to Ravenstern as a whole rather than any particular Order.

Also the Grand Inquisitor for the Astrean high-priest is something more suited to the armoured corps, ie the Grandmaster of the Dawn would call himself that, rather the holy father of Astraea is the "Venerable Judicator of Valonbray".

The Shadow Legion is (very) religious, and is split between Damia Provideo in memory of the past glory of Baccus, and that which we've spoken about before Marcus, which is their future. The leadership would be primarily the latter, though both are dedicated to the Baccus Empire beyond anything else.

Griffon are just as DiabloDude described, though I would suggest that Eunomia Stabilitis is the patron of Pendor, and therefore of the Griffons.
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Iskar
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PostSubject: Re: Pendorian Religions   Tue Sep 06, 2011 1:50 am

I didn't mean that the orders mentioned are all the military arms of the said churches, but affiliated with them in such a way, that in case of doubt these churches are the most likely non-military organisations to cooperate with the respective orders and that many knights stick to the respective churches as their personal religion in the case of the secular orders. Also the churches would ask the respective orders first if they were in need of military help.

I think it's quite logical that Ullr Vetr should have a considerable amount of followers among the orders dedicated to archery.

Well, the Inquisitors of the Roman Catholic church have throughout history been clerics, not knights. Before the founding of the modern Inquisition during the Albigensian crusade the Inquisitors were mainly Bishops and after that the Inquisition was in the hand of Dominicans and Franciscans.

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PostSubject: Re: Pendorian Religions   Tue Sep 06, 2011 2:01 am

Oh ok, the Legion stroke me as a very unreligious one Very Happy

Would it be possible if Marcus would, say, "disrespect" the religion?
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PostSubject: Re: Pendorian Religions   Tue Sep 06, 2011 2:44 am

To further support my opinion that the clerical head of the Astraean church should be named Grand Inquisitor:
inquisitio is (late) latin for "judiciary investigation", therefore it would fit the head of the church of the goddess of justice well to be named inquisitor.
Anyway, historically the executions were carried out by (theoretically secular and independent) henchmen of the inquisition tribunals.
Concerning the title of the head of the Dawn: What about High Prefect of Justice?


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PostSubject: Re: Pendorian Religions   Tue Sep 06, 2011 2:49 am

Except, that it isn't the job for the head of the church to investigate, it is their job to pass judgement.

They are a judge, very similar to the modern sense of the word.
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PostSubject: Re: Pendorian Religions   Tue Sep 06, 2011 2:51 am

That would be our modern concept of a judge, not the one applying to a world inspired by European middle ages.

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PostSubject: Re: Pendorian Religions   Tue Sep 06, 2011 2:53 am

Right, and the head of the church is very much inspired by the modern sense of a judge.

Not everything need to be based around the middle ages. Pendor is not a recreation of middle-ages Europe.
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Mordred
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PostSubject: Re: Pendorian Religions   Tue Sep 06, 2011 2:57 am

Guys, please drop it. The title is "Venerable Judicator" and there are reasons for this which may, or may not emerge in the coming weeks.
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PostSubject: Re: Pendorian Religions   Tue Sep 06, 2011 3:23 am

Interesting.. Very interesting...

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PostSubject: Re: Pendorian Religions   Tue Sep 06, 2011 3:23 am

Yeah, drop it and let Mordred play MM

Longer you keep quiet, shorter you have to wait for his post!

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Iskar
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PostSubject: Re: Pendorian Religions   Tue Sep 06, 2011 4:23 am

Wisely spoken, agreed.

Well, can you give us the official religious situation in Pendor, Mordred?

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PostSubject: Re: Pendorian Religions   Tue Sep 06, 2011 4:24 am

I heard MM is back again.
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PostSubject: Re: Pendorian Religions   Sat Mar 10, 2012 8:59 am

Well, can you give us the official religious situation in Pendor, Mordred?

Necrobumping this is in Theo's personal interests now.
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PostSubject: Re: Pendorian Religions   Mon Apr 23, 2012 4:22 am

The ultimate guide to understanding Pendorian morality:

Website with links here: http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/ShadesOfConflict

Black vs. White: Doesn't need too much explanation. Harry against Voldemort, Belmont Family versus Dracula, Gondor against Mordor, Autobots against Decepticons, etcetera. When there are a lot of other conflicts on the side, this tends to be the one most emblematic of the series. The Worthy Opponent may deign to work for the Card-Carrying Villain to get the chance to fight The Messiah, but the story isn't so much about the first as it is about the last two.

White vs. White: Disneyfication, or the flaw of excessive cuteness.

White vs. Grey: A lot of conflicts between the Ideal Hero and the Anti-Hero or Anti-Villain tend to lean on this side. Also the most egregious Our Elves Are Better, when lacking perfection isn't good enough for the smug little bastards. At this shade you have Zero versus Harpuia, trying to stop N, etc. See also But Not Too Evil.

White and Grey vs. Black: the core good guys don't do bad things, but there's other groups in the world who hate the villains just as much and are willing to do nasty things to them that the heroes don't have to.
White/Grey and Black vs. Black: Basically, where the heroes are forced to team up with bad and not-so-good people to take down other bad people.

White and Grey and Black vs. White and Grey and Black: The situation is complicated. Some The Good, the Bad, and the Evil works fall here, as well as some Morality Kitchen Sink ones.
Note from Saeros: I think this is the one.

White and Grey vs. Grey and Black: When you want one side to be good guys yet still have moral ambiguity in both parts of the conflict.

White vs. Grey (and sometimes White) and Black: The villains are mixed in with people who aren't puppy-killing evil. Often leads to the dilemma that one must hurt the non-villains. Other The Good, the Bad, and the Evil works fall here.

Grey vs. Grey: More cynical works tend to fall here. Revenge stories, such as Cycle of Revenge and Feuding Families often present such a conflict. Don't have to go Grey to get a well-developed character or anything, but it does make it easier. See also Unsympathetic Comedy Protagonist for a frequently grey conflict that doesn't have to be realistic. (Handled poorly, risks becoming A Lighter Shade Of Gray.)
A Lighter Shade of Grey happens when both sides are still morally ambiguous/neutral overall, but one is more good than the other.

Grey vs. Grey and Black: A subgroup of Grey and Gray Morality. Basically, both sides are handled with great moral ambiguity, but the enemy side is made clear by there being also some Black (eg: Complete Monster) individuals in place along with the Anti-Villain, Woobie, Destroyer of Worlds, Well-Intentioned Extremist, Knight Templar, etc. Only recently put up and worth serious contemplation, especially in regards to the Sliding Scale of Idealism vs. Cynicism.

Grey vs. Black: The protagonists aren't the nicest guys in the world, and may even be out and out assholes, but we root for them because the people they fight are even worse. Often present in Darker and Edgier works.

Black vs. Black: Enemy Civil War, Warhammer 40,000. If handled poorly, tends to lead to Darkness-Induced Audience Apathy due to it being impossible to root for anyone in the story.
A Lighter Shade of Black is an attempt to avert this by making one villain the clearly more sympathetic one.

Blue vs. Orange: A story where one of the sides is not so much good/evil/neutral as alien or just bizarre.
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PostSubject: Re: Pendorian Religions   Mon Apr 23, 2012 5:46 am

Marcus the Shadow Fighter wrote:
I heard MM is back again.
What is MM?
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Saeros
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PostSubject: Re: Pendorian Religions   Mon Apr 23, 2012 6:52 am

Mitchy Matt is the creator of the Aftermath project (this forum) and former gm of the Legion's event.
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PostSubject: Re: Pendorian Religions   Mon Apr 23, 2012 7:08 am

Sorry Saeros, had entirely forgotten about this thread. Truth is there isn't much info out there about the religions. DD started doing some work on them for PoP4, but that is about as far as we got besides what is already ingame.

Pendor is defiantly White and Grey and Black vs. White and Grey and Black:

Some of the whites are actually grey (Dawn)
Some of the whites turn grey then try to redeem themselves (Radiant Cross in PoP4)
Some of the greys are actually white (not so much in PoP3... was going to explore this more in PoP4 particularly with the Order of the Fulgent Moon)
Some of the blacks are grey (Shadow Legion, and possibly Gauntlets... Erida Occisor and the Heretics in PoP4... really hope they keep the changes to that for release!)
Some of the greys are black (Certain elements of the Eventide)
Some of the blacks are black (Snake Cult)
Some of the whites are white (Well ok... maybe not so many!)

And most will lean one way or the other depending on the situation.

Its an interesting subject to explore, and something I was particularly focussed on when I was in charge.
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PostSubject: Re: Pendorian Religions   Mon Apr 23, 2012 11:23 am

I was giving some thought to the state of religion in Pendor. Despite the fact that my RP character Celdiur is a priest, he unfortunately has no official lore or scripture to work with the enhance that side of his character.

I would like to ask permision to expand upon the religions myself, more specifically the Astraeaite faith. Things along the lines of holy books, choice scriptures and quotes, rites and rituals, y'know stuff along that line. Just so I can make Celdiur more faithful to his position as holy man as well as knight of the Eventide.
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PostSubject: Re: Pendorian Religions   Mon Apr 23, 2012 11:26 am

I would also be interested in that. Celdiur, would you like to cooperate on something like that? If Mordred gives us permission of course.

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PostSubject: Re: Pendorian Religions   Mon Apr 23, 2012 11:27 am

I would suggest getting together with DiabloDude, Aranor and Azlanek in order to see what you can produce. Quite literally all we have on the deities of Pendor is here; http://popmod.wetpaint.com/page/The+Gods+of+Pendor

EDIT : Its DD's call as the main lore buff on the dev team now. Depends what the developers want to with the religions. I don't think SD would object considering they were the work of Fawzia and not his own.
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