Manifest Destiny (Discussion)

Drakes Bane

Dragons Nest

Hold of the Great Wyrm

Wyrmhold

The Dragons Woad

Northwatch Fortress

Keep of the Firstborn (Thinking along the lines of Dragons being the oldest beings)

Qualis Keep

Rock of the Ancients

The Icicle

Keep of the Fistborn more likely.

Great, thank you! I've updated the list according to the suggestions.

Note;

Naval power section has been edited.
- New ship descriptions added
- Crew numbers added
- Harbour Watch Galleys modified to clarify their role
- Naval combat rules added

Trade posts give 10 galleys for defensive actions. Given the cost of ships, as well as the bonuses from other buildings, that seems a bit high.

The inclusion of a ram (a fantastic idea) seems like this may be a bit too much. With ten+ at least, and a capable commander, the defenders will certainly inflict quite a few casualties to the attacking ships. To land an appropriate number of troops to take a city, it would require a very large fleet, perhaps too large considering the costs of building them in the first place. Perhaps this should be lowered to 8, or even 5?

True, but bear in mind that it requires a Small City to build it (which no Order even has yet), plus having spent over 125,000 RP to construct it and the required predecessor buildings. The reason it produces so many ships is both because it is high up on the construction list, but also to differentiate it from the shipyard buildings, though this does raise the issue that having more than one shipyard is redundant.

One way we could balance this is to have a system like the Training Grounds, whereby each can only support so many ships. Allow the shipyard line of buildings to support an increasing number of warships (which can of course move around, the Harbour Watch ones are tied to just that hex), while the trade line of the buildings do not increase this limit at all.

Wharves can also be used to boost Navy maximum size too I think.

Something along the lines of (Wharves and Shipyard line adding to the total) ;

Wharf I +2 Galleys
Wharf II +1 Galley +1 Barque
Wharf III +2 Galleys +1 Barque

Boat Builder +2 Galley +2 Barque
Drydock +4 Galleys +2 Barques +1 Caravel
Shipyard +6 Galleys +2 Barques +2 Caravel

So +5 Galleys, +2 Barques for each Wharf III and +12 Galleys, +6 Barques, +3 Caravels for each Shipyard. The difference is so large because Shipyard line can only be built in Coastal Towns, while the Wharf can be in any Coastal hex.

Ultimately if it proves overpowered, we can always reduce the number of free ships the Trade Post generates.

EDIT : Also don't forget that with the right buildings, you can reduce the RP cost for each vessel by 50%, not to mention that these are intended to drive demand of Iron, Wood and Flax up.

I don't think a supply system is necessary, at least not yet. I think that would only be necessary in the event of a naval arms race, which I just don't see happening as the focus will remain on land units. (At least until one order uses a fleet to great effect ) Unless the supply limit of the ships were to also include a kind of bonus for staying within those limits, such as no or reduced maintenance.

I don't think ships are too expensive in their own right, at least not with the craftsmen reducing that cost, but building ships causes an order to lose the opportunity to invest the RP in new buildings or soldiers. It's for that reason that I don't think active fleets are going to get to the size that could effectively deal with a trade post fleet.


Upon further reflection of the value strategy of taking a harbor, ten ships might be entirely reasonable. (Oh how I <3 the possibilities with forum RP!)

Do Vanskerry crews function the same as Order crews? More specifically, do Vanskerry galleys have a crew of 30 militia archers which are not capable of boarding or otherwise leaving the boat?

I guess since Vanskerry's are sea raiders they should be able to do some nasty damage on sea?

Vikings were masterfull warriors and oarsmen at the same time.

IIRC the Vikings didn't often fight at sea, they preferred to land and then duke it out. Obviously they were able sailors, they just didn't care for shipboard combat. My guess is that the Vanskerry do the same thing, as the Fierdsvain are merchant cities (Like the Hanseatic League or the Italian city states in my mind), and there would be enough wealth for pirates to take from the seas without ever needing to raid on land... unless they're the sort that like to pillage instead of take ships.

I'm mainly asking for potential tactics, as well as shipboard combat. A single Vanskerry galley carrying 10 Warriors and 30 Militia Archers is one thing (Fight them on land and eliminate their support archers!) is one thing, a galley carrying 30-40 Warriors is not something even 10 Knights will want to board.

yeah but especially due to the fact that the Vanskerry patrols on Pendor only have warriors and raiders, It is not likely that their ships would crew anything else. They certainly don't bring militia with them, but the warriors and raiders would use ranged weapons themselves, be it with less skill.

I personally think that boarding a Vanskerry ship is futile unless you do it with a real warship.
A real warship could sent armored and trained soldiers to board where a simple merchant vessel would most certainly lack the amor (and possibly also skill).

also a Vanskerry ship will be faster than a regular trading and warship so much harder to board.


EDIT

I am currently reading the manuscript of Ibn Fadlan, relating his experiences with the Northmen in A.D. 922
perhaps that is usefull? (The movie 'the 13th warrior' is partly based on this manuscript)

If we based it on the metagame rules, it would make sense for the Vanskerry to only have raiders or warriors in their parties, as the militia archers of the crew wouldn't have left the ships.

Based solely on IG observations, they would behave like the Order galley crews. At a Vanskerry landing site there are 4 ships, and around 40 raiders/warriors at the site.

I must disagree, because it differs so much from the culture they are based on. (wich is paramount)

But I have no real vote, so I will leave it for those who have.

Ana Sulran wrote:

IIRC the Vikings didn't often fight at sea, they preferred to land and then duke it out.

That is entirely false, the early Vikings (Norwegian), fought almost exclusively at sea because the Fjords were more or less impassable by foot. There are even accounts of ships being tied together to create a battlefield.

The Danish Vikings however, and likely the Swedish ones too would have disembarked. Incidentally, amusing fact; the word "Rus" (from which Russia is derived), was actually a Swedish tribe who colonised parts of Russia (Novgorod and Kiev). Their name however came from the Finns who dubbed them "Those who row away".

Good to know!


So, how do they function? With crews like Order galleys, or entirely with Raiders/Warriors?

Like Order Galleys, but their additional crew are likely to be Raiders / Warriors.

I just read that scandinavian mercs were called 'Varangians' I couldn't help but notice a similarity to the term Vanskerry
pure coincidence?

I can answer that one! Nope!

The Vanskerry backstory of coming to Pendor with the Empire is much like the Varangians working for the Byzantines... except the RL Varangians took their gold and went home.


There's a great story about one ex-Varangian Guard that left with enough gold that a nobleman hosting him during his travel accused him of stealing it all, and they had to wait for confirmation from the Empire... and that guard went on to become a King.

Only ones that served the Byzantine Emperors, they were considered more loyal than the actual Byzantine armies, because once they took an oath to serve, they damn well kept it.

As to the similarity in names, I don't know; before my time.

hmmm oke :-) But I must say that this book: 'Eaters of the Dead, by Michael Crichton' tought me more in the first 40 pages than an evening of Wikipedia would do about this subject.

but back to the original subject.
A Vanskerry ship works as an Order ship with raiders instead of militia? wich makes them stronger?

Precisely.

Wait, do they function like Order ships with their additional troops being raiders, or are all of their troops raiders?

Additional ones.

I understand then.


I had another question... but it has completely slipped my mind.


Oh well, /seabattle.

I've had a few thoughts. (Run, RUN! Run as fast as you can!) For the naval game. (What else would I have thoughts about?)

As it is now, ships are basically useful for moving troops. There isn't really that much of an advantage in having a navy, at least nothing spelled out in the metagame. They're also very expensive, and combined with the minimal obvious uses, it's no wonder that only the Eventide is pursuing it. (/shakefist>Azlanek) Galleys can only carry 10 troops, so they're not terribly useful for moving troops anyway. Barques may carry a respectable 50, but the costs required to build sufficient numbers are too high to make that rational at the moment. Something is needed to make ships desirable, without being totally overpowered.

Don't worry, the wall of text isn't THAT bad, each spoiler is only a paragraph.

Financial incentives!

Spoiler:

Blockades

Spoiler:

Prizes

Spoiler:

*Disclaimer: The numbers I used are just for the concept, I obviously have no idea what a balanced number would be for most of this.