Future Events and Conflict

Based on the current Throne Room event, and the OOC reactions to what has occurred, I've changed my mind about inter-order conflict.

I don't feel like we're at a stage where it would be fruitful. Inevitably with conflict, someone has to lose IC. Based on how this small taste of conflict has gone, I don't think inter-Order conflict is going to be mutually fun for us. Instead I think that future events should stay as they have, with certain Orders cooperating, as I really don't care to be apart of another IC conflict if it is going to bleed over OOC. In effect, I think there is too much in the way of OOCly attempting to win instead of trying to RP our characters within certain situations.

What are your impressions of how this has gone?

Its an interesting perspective, and I definitely want to hear more of your views on this.

the need to create certain OOC forums just to make sure other orders won't use their OOC knowledge in their IG actions, shows it.

an OOC alliance that has in no way been RP'ed should be voided IG. :p

One of my thoughts was to create a sub board in each chapter house which is only visible to members of that Order and the Royals, would this help? Something like the backrooms that have sprung up, but for that Order only.

Yes I think at some points that will be useful, we Griffons made a thread that was quickly discovered by other GM's and thus abandoned only 30 minutes after creation.

at least having it would be great, even if it's not used at this time.

Aelos wrote:

the need to create certain OOC forums just to make sure other orders won't use their OOC knowledge in their IG actions, shows it.

an OOC alliance that has in no way been RP'ed should be voided IG. :p

If that was aimed at Legion-Silvermists...

We actually did RP it.

And really, what about simply FORBIDDING THE USAGE OF OOC KNOWLEDGE IN IC?

If people get this right, really understand it, why not simply use it? That's the most basic of all roleplaying rules there are and have ever been - never meddle OOC with IC.

Stop being paranoid and don't be mistrustful of other persons here. We should be having fun, not going all serious over other Orders learning out about your secrets.

I can understand if you want to keep a secret plot the way it is: SECRET, but really, we can know everything we want OOC as long as we keep a grip on what's OOC and what's IC.

Marcus the Shadow Fighter wrote:

Aelos wrote:

the need to create certain OOC forums just to make sure other orders won't use their OOC knowledge in their IG actions, shows it.

an OOC alliance that has in no way been RP'ed should be voided IG. :p

If that was aimed at Legion-Silvermists...

We actually did RP it.

And really, what about simply FORBIDDING THE USAGE OF OOC KNOWLEDGE IN IC?

If people get this right, really understand it, why not simply use it? That's the most basic of all roleplaying rules there are and have ever been - never meddle OOC with IC.

Stop being paranoid and don't be mistrustful of other persons here. We should be having fun, not going all serious over other Orders learning out about your secrets.

I can understand if you want to keep a secret plot the way it is: SECRET, but really, we can know everything we want OOC as long as we keep a grip on what's OOC and what's IC.

keep calm Marcus, it actually wasn't aimed at you.

Just the basic sphere of paranoia that has become this forum ever since the new event started.

My perspective:

The problem of IC bleeding to the OOC-realm can be solved that by enforcing more strict RP rules. To be honest, the only thing that annoys me in this aspect of the problem is fairness (especially: not being present in the IC-scene and still knowing what was going on; or being present in the scene, and communicating OOC with other people).

About conflict: since the first days of Aftermath I defend a more realistic approach to RP. While losing, dying, and seeing one's order being destroyed is sad, the possibility of that happening makes all of us more responsible for the actions of our characters and enriches the RP in many ways. In the worst case, the losers will have to start a new character (possibly a friend or family of the deceased, as happened with Theo, in order to have some sort of continuity and/or unhealthy desire of revenge against the murderers).

A real example: Marcus wants to duel the Snake Cult commander. It think it would be much more awesome and heroic if his character could actually die or be crippled in the process.

Most importantly: I think this is fun, and absence of conflict would be too artificial for a highly ideological and violent society (but then again, it's only my opinion).

Marcus the Shadow Fighter wrote:

And really, what about simply FORBIDDING THE USAGE OF OOC KNOWLEDGE IN IC?

If people get this right, really understand it, why not simply use it? That's the most basic of all roleplaying rules there are and have ever been - never meddle OOC with IC.

Because in practice this is very nearly impossible. I've even been accused of having OOC ideals with my use of the Dragons despite my very best efforts not to, and I am certain it has crept in from time to time elsewhere in even the most well meaning players' roleplay.

Paranoia? In politics? You surely jest, good sir.

I would just QFE Mordred on the issue of Metagaming.


My bigger concern and why I felt the need to bring it up was the reverse. Based on the OOC threads, and IC emotes as opposed to spoken words, there are some hurt feelings over how the IC has gone.

Is this only my perception?

Quote :

there are some hurt feelings over how the IC has gone.

I assure you that I, at least, am as happy as ever.

Good that you brought the dueling part Saeros, I actually had planned something of the like.

You see, currently...

Well, currently there is a certain thing going on in Marcus' head. That duel would solve it, for the better or the worse, and also decide the fate of his Order, too.

@ Isabela

I think we pretty much agree on that, but that is, in my opinion, a personal problem, not a general one, and thus only the person him- or herself can solve it.

I'm quite happy with RPing right now, with all sorts of fun stuff brewing in my head. That's just me, though, and Saeros, apparently. People are taking what's said in IC too seriously and what's not said in OOC too angrily.

The main source for OOC disagreement was a lack of information about certain issues - mainly what some characters can and cannot do. If we take this lesson and prepare these issues more carefully next time we should be able to avoid unpleasant OOC discussions.

Apart from that I'm actually quite happy with how things are now. For the time being there have been enough NPC enemies (snakes, jatu, assassins, red dawnites, vanskerry, etc.) but they always require host attendance and we might run short of the latter OOC resource and thus of IC enemies, too. Therefore I'm quite happy that the great "We all love the king and will never fight each other"-party seems to be over.

Regarding the current IC scene(s) I'm quite happy with them, too.

PS: One should neither underestimate the strategic dimensions of this roleplay. Since all orders have hundreds of NPCs, castles and ships at their command it is inevitable that this is more than some cooperative "I draw my sword and attack him" or "I drink a cup of ale with the mysterious stranger" (you get what I mean, I guess), and this strategic dimension means that someone can actually loose IC and more than a fight or an ear. You can loose battles, castles or whole duchies - but you can also win those, and that adds a lot to the fun of this RP and I would not want to miss that.

Iskar wrote:

PS: One should neither underestimate the strategic dimensions of this roleplay. Since all orders have hundreds of NPCs, castles and ships at their command it is inevitable that this is more than some cooperative "I draw my sword and attack him" or "I drink a cup of ale with the mysterious stranger" (you get what I mean, I guess), and this strategic dimension means that someone can actually loose IC and more than a fight or an ear. You can loose battles, castles or whole duchies - but you can also win those, and that adds a lot to the fun of this RP and I would not want to miss that.

True, that is why Aelos' NPC's captured a Silvermist officer and are torturing him as we speak. Because the fact that u control castles and perhaps even duchies does make it harder to separate OOC from IC, and that is mainly what I am warning you (and everyone) for.

For example (please take no offence): The Legion-Silvermist alliance, should have (in my eyes) been RP'ed before the entered the council chambers. It should not consist of a mere OOC pm. (not saying that it does!)

This being said, and hoping everyone can keep them apart, I'd like all IC-Scenes to be open for every member to read. Keeping restrictions for who can post and who cannot. example: Aelos started a quest to discover the origins of his sword, but only Griffons can read it because it started in the Griffon Chapterhouse.

I think I can put your mind at ease regarding the Legion Silvermist alliance. It was based on the common victory at Stormcliff Cove, the signing of the contract has been roleplayed, since then strategical questions have been discussed regularly and the blood shed at Cez should have removed the last doubts that might have persisted.

Most others did not notice it because it was all done in our chapterhouse boards or in an event that they do not have access to.

PS: In fact it was signed on Oct 28, last year.

Iskar wrote:

I think I can put your mind at ease regarding the Legion Silvermist alliance. It was based on the common victory at Stormcliff Cove, the signing of the contract has been roleplayed, since then strategical questions have been discussed regularly and the blood shed at Cez should have removed the last doubts that might have persisted.

Most others did not notice it because it was all done in our chapterhouse boards or in an event that they do not have access to.

I thought that was the case, but yours was an alliance everyone knew about, so I used it in my example.

Torturing a Silvermist?

This will be great one day, great I say!

I think RP should always come first order get's weaker-new opportunites to roleplay. About character death:Personaly i am always ready for it and allready got planned a new one in case.

It shouldn't be about wining war, it's all about having fun and roleplaying you'r character as deep as you can. The only thing that should be impossbile in my oppinion is to complitely destroy order, or restrain it hard.

I would rather not have the opportunities to metagame. Particularly with conflicts and the like that will be coming up.

IC assumptions work much better when there is only IC information to base those assumptions on.

Otherwise, there is no opportunity for a character to make a lucky guess without OOC accusations or even a reasonable choice based on only the IC information, when there is additional OOC information available. It's a difficult thing to deal with, regardless of how ethical the RPers are. It's just not realistic to expect characters to be able to plot, counter-plot, unravel plots, etc without drama, if it is plainly obvious OOC.

The Griffons have already taken to handling most of our business through PMs instead of the chapterhouse, so making it private would just be more convenient.

Soooo, Zekic... You are ready for character death? Because Lucius would totally be up for that after your attack on Saeros.

When I was left alone in the Gauntlet, I was actually looking for ways to spark a war in which the Gauntlet would be destroyed in an epic way.

Also, if the Laria event ends without conclusion, something that you probably didn't notice or care about WILL BE REVEALEDMAYBE.

In the events I have been involved in, I generally try to work out what OOC information would have made it to characters. I probably miss stuff, get it wrong and include things I shouldn't, but the effort is there!

@ Isabela

...And this is why I never tell my plots to anyone.

It would ruin everything.

As for the topic;

I don't think character death should be forced on players. That isn't good. But if it's a dramatic death/one that has meaning, maybe the player would want his character to die. We should start cutting off loose strings and pave a way for somebody else to step in your character's shoes incase he dies.

I suppose some things could be revealed under certains conditions, or else orders will have to abandon their efforts in espionage, counter-espionage, and information market (not that it exists...).


I'm saying that character death and other unwanted events should be possible in the right context. Being backstabbed by an assassin is completely unreasonable. But holding off a bridge against a massive army while most of your soldiers escape is something that should cost your life. Same as a grandmaster leading a charge for the morale boost (and risking his life in the process), or someone attempting to assassinate an enemy high officer (if there's no punishment, why wouldn't we do it?).

I agree with Saeros. Sure, excessive deaths leads to discouragement and people quitting... but there are realistic limits.

I'm not a fan of RP armor in most cases. If a character wishes to do something 'badass/heroic/stupid' then the chance of death should exist. It's difficult to be immersed in the RP when there aren't realistic consequences. That doesn't mean every bad ending is death, but that should be on the table when extreme choices are made. Since at this point I would rather not have Izzy die, she'll not be doing much in the way of single combat or charging in alone, or riding into Marleons and saying 'Heya Dukey, you're a terrible duke. Got your nose! /flee'