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 Regarding the Equipment Thread

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Isabel Tenorio
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PostSubject: Re: Regarding the Equipment Thread   Tue Jul 17, 2012 4:54 am

I thought rune weapons were off-limits. Either way though, I don't want a glaive.

I admit that after stealing Manopener, it was rather fun, but I'd rather have a more traditional spear for this.
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Sir Haegon
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PostSubject: Re: Regarding the Equipment Thread   Tue Jul 17, 2012 5:05 am

Oh I didn't know that!

Still that weapon wins entire wars.

Back on topic:
I would use the 'War Spear', just plain and simple. Weapons get lost during battle and a spear could brake, so why spend a lot of money?

Aelos has a silvered longsword, as a heirloom, not as something he actually bought.
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Marcus the Shadow Fighter
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PostSubject: Re: Regarding the Equipment Thread   Tue Jul 17, 2012 5:29 am

Spears are actually very handy weapons, if you know how to use them. Especially if you make them a little shorter - they're light, agile, and deadly. Especially with a shield. The spears could be used either to throw or to stab. Better than a sword, even. Even the best swordsman can be defeated by a good fighter with a quarterstaff. Etc.

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Sir Haegon
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PostSubject: Re: Regarding the Equipment Thread   Tue Jul 17, 2012 5:43 am

I disagree, a shortened spear can only be used to stab, while a longer spear is useless when the enemy passes it's top and thus making your spear useless against his sword.

A spear should be used when you either have a lot of space in an one-on-one duel or in a shield wall.
The battle between Gregor Clegane and the Red Viper in asoiaf has a lot of examples of the shortcomings and advantages of a spear. (although, ofcourse, it is a fantasy.)

EDIT

I must be fair here.. In the hands of a skilled spearman a spear would be the better choice, but you can never (really never) use it as your only weapon.. where a spear is extremely usefull at long-mid combat, you will need a shortened sword/axe for when your spear is passed over (or when you've thrown it). When this is possible you will be able to defeat most swordsman with eass.
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Isabel Tenorio
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PostSubject: Re: Regarding the Equipment Thread   Tue Jul 17, 2012 6:01 am

Greek warriors often didn't have a sword at all. Certainly, it's best to have both, but soldiers often didn't receive both a sword and spear. That isn't necessarily because of the merits in combat, but also financial.

I've always disliked how difficult it is to use a spear on foot in M&B. The bayonets in the Napleonic Wars mod make me happy, though. Every now and then I feel crazy and try to go into combat with only spear, on foot. After stabbing someone 3-4 times and they finally get inside of it... I die.


After looking at the Jatu Honor Lance for a while, they aren't really that long, it's just the way the model holds it. It really isn't as long as a pike, so I think it would be fine both mounted and on foot for RP.

I think I have it settled then, it's just a matter of approving the quality of the gear.

Weapons- Jatu Honor Lance
Fierdsvain Leaf Sword

Armor- Veccavian Plate
The Helmet that Valkyries, some Maiden Adventurers and Veccavian Knights wear. (Seriously, I've never found one in a store or looted one, so I don't know the name!)
Generic (Matching!) gauntlets and boots.


What kind of qualities would be acceptable? I'd prefer the Lance to be the more high quality weapon, oddly enough. The armor should be as good as is acceptable for a minor noble to be able to afford.
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Sir Haegon
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PostSubject: Re: Regarding the Equipment Thread   Tue Jul 17, 2012 6:11 am

Well the Greek had to pay for their own weapons. Let's not overestimate the greek soldier.

It was a huge shieldwall with poor men surrounding it with slingers and bows (why? because they were poor and could not afford hoplite armor).. Thermopylae was luck, and not all Greek could fight as well as the Spartans. A phalanx like they used there could not be flanked thanks to the cliffs, and the persians mostly wore cloth and used weak shields and clubs.

Even Darius' immortals wore linen (in very nice colours, but useless in battle) they where only 'Immortal' because poor Darius kept the number of those men at 3000.
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Marcus the Shadow Fighter
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PostSubject: Re: Regarding the Equipment Thread   Tue Jul 17, 2012 6:43 am

Wasn't the number 10 000?

Anyways, shortened spears could be very potential weapons if one ever were to delve deeply in its use. Add in a light, agile round shield and that's a deadly warrior for you. Some throwing spears added in, too.

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Sir Haegon
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PostSubject: Re: Regarding the Equipment Thread   Tue Jul 17, 2012 6:52 am

honestly, I couldn't remember it's number.

I do not say spears are useless, it is just that it requires much more skill and agility if you want to be an equal/better to a swordsman. It is, however, considering other weapons/armor in PoP not likely for Ana Sulran to use.

and going back to a statement you made about the best swordsman being defeated by a good fighter with a quarterstaff,
Here, also, I must disagree because a Japanese kenpai would have no trouble cutting such a man in half ;-)

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Isabel Tenorio
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PostSubject: Re: Regarding the Equipment Thread   Tue Jul 17, 2012 6:53 am

... what about PoP would make a spear an unlikely weapon?
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Saeros
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PostSubject: Re: Regarding the Equipment Thread   Tue Jul 17, 2012 7:09 am

I must point out that the efficiency of weapons and martial arts is a topic as prone to flame as are youtube comments. Weapons and armor were developed also according the needs of society, climate, and from available materials, and their efficiency is conditioned to these situations. Thus we see ancient egyptians wearing no armor at all, and with large leatherskin shields. Their swords were then designed to better cut flesh and tear shields apart, not so much for piercing as Romans 5 centuries later. South-american natives have crude weapons, but often coated with poison, because this is what works and is easily obtainable in a jungle (where metal rusts very quickly).
This is to argue that no weapon is better than other, this depending mostly on it's user's skill.

Ana, I'd just customize your spear somehow. My character's swords, for example, are just plain ravenstern swords without the armguard.
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Isabel Tenorio
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PostSubject: Re: Regarding the Equipment Thread   Tue Jul 17, 2012 7:12 am

I've no ideas for an appropriate customization to a spear in this case. Her weapons weren't supposed to be anything special, just good quality purchased items. Her armor is custom already, so I don't want to overdo it.
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Saeros
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PostSubject: Re: Regarding the Equipment Thread   Tue Jul 17, 2012 7:13 am

what about "a double headed spear, but cast in pure steel"?
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Isabel Tenorio
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PostSubject: Re: Regarding the Equipment Thread   Tue Jul 17, 2012 7:15 am

Wouldn't that make it substantially more heavy though?

I suppose it could be silver in appearance as well, though I feel like that might be overdoing it!
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Sir Haegon
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PostSubject: Re: Regarding the Equipment Thread   Tue Jul 17, 2012 7:16 am

Saeros wrote:
This is to argue that no weapon is better than other, this depending mostly on it's user's skill.

This is put simpler, but that was partly what I meant.

Some weapons are more difficult to master than others. Wink
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Mordred
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PostSubject: Re: Regarding the Equipment Thread   Tue Jul 17, 2012 7:19 am

Actually, spears are one of the most undervalued, underestimated weapons ever to have existed. They are one of the most versatile classes of weapons, being a blunt, slashing and piercing weapon all in one (just depends how you use it). One of the most enduring facts I heard about it is "no-one likes having a point aimed directly at the eye for most of the fight" as is invariably the case fighting against a spear. Also, those things are fast.

They were a great favourite among the Vikings and the Saxons for instance, due to their utility in a shieldwall, both at the front because it can be used with a shield, and behind as the user would just stab out over the wall.

Anyways, just wanted to get that in there. I even have my main character in Vinland training in one because they are just such cool weapons.
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Isabel Tenorio
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PostSubject: Re: Regarding the Equipment Thread   Tue Jul 17, 2012 7:21 am

I nearly cried when I read that Oblivion wouldn't have spears, and when Skyrim didn't have them either... well, by that point I was just ranting about not bringing MK in to write the story. I could rant about the MK thing for hours though.


Anyway, Moooordred, what quality would be acceptable for the armor and weapons, or is that irrelevant now?
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PostSubject: Re: Regarding the Equipment Thread   Tue Jul 17, 2012 7:25 am

Good quality, but not exceptional and certainly not magical equipment.

Veccavian Plate is fine, it could have come as loot from the Veccavian event. I wouldn't go with Masterwork though, just a "good" suit of it.
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Isabel Tenorio
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PostSubject: Re: Regarding the Equipment Thread   Tue Jul 17, 2012 7:26 am

Aww. I wanted a flaming sword like from Game of Thrones!


You know, I bet King's Blood would work for lighting a sword on fire...
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Saeros
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PostSubject: Re: Regarding the Equipment Thread   Tue Jul 17, 2012 7:27 am

To what Mordred said I should add that the jo, a shorter staff, is still used by the japanese police, including in duels against katana-wielding yakuza (happens now and then). Many of its moves come, aha, from japanese spear-fighting.
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PostSubject: Re: Regarding the Equipment Thread   Tue Jul 17, 2012 7:30 am

On a related note, what the #$&* is that helmet called? I've been to every city multiple times, both Noldor merchants, and fought over a thousand Fierdsvain soldiers and still not seen one outside of battle, being worn.

My guess is Maiden Adventurer Helmet, as I did find a very similiar one called Adventurer Helmet.
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Sir Haegon
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PostSubject: Re: Regarding the Equipment Thread   Tue Jul 17, 2012 7:31 am

Saeros wrote:
To what Mordred said I should add that the jo, a shorter staff, is still used by the japanese police, including in duels against katana-wielding yakuza (happens now and then). Many of its moves come, aha, from japanese spear-fighting.

let me just say that a Kenpai is a 'sword-saint'. You said the best, and no one beats a Kenpai.

Japanese did perfect many forms of fighting, but I question its use on plate armor from the European Dark Ages.

Anyway, I just cannot change my opinion, so I will keep quiet about it from now on. Wink
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Tubby McChubbles
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PostSubject: Re: Regarding the Equipment Thread   Tue Jul 17, 2012 7:37 am

Saeros wrote:
I must point out that the efficiency of weapons and martial arts is a topic as prone to flame as are youtube comments. Weapons and armor were developed also according the needs of society, climate, and from available materials, and their efficiency is conditioned to these situations. Thus we see ancient egyptians wearing no armor at all, and with large leatherskin shields. Their swords were then designed to better cut flesh and tear shields apart, not so much for piercing as Romans 5 centuries later. South-american natives have crude weapons, but often coated with poison, because this is what works and is easily obtainable in a jungle (where metal rusts very quickly).
This is to argue that no weapon is better than other, this depending mostly on it's user's skill.

Many people don't realise that arms races still took place back here. Tribes on the italian peninsula originally fought in a phalanx, larger shields and the maniple system came into use, suddenly the blocking elements take less casualties, and other elements are bypassing you completely. Supporting troops were not well equipped enough to defend the flanks, and the phalanx fell apart. (although in a straight fight on flat ground, a phalanx would and did beat the maniple.)

Equipment depends on your opponent, not just your own environment. The legions understood this, so they adapted and defeated most armies they came up against, and pretty much anything when not outnumbered.

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PostSubject: Re: Regarding the Equipment Thread   Tue Jul 17, 2012 7:42 am

Tubby McChubbles wrote:
Saeros wrote:
I must point out that the efficiency of weapons and martial arts is a topic as prone to flame as are youtube comments. Weapons and armor were developed also according the needs of society, climate, and from available materials, and their efficiency is conditioned to these situations. Thus we see ancient egyptians wearing no armor at all, and with large leatherskin shields. Their swords were then designed to better cut flesh and tear shields apart, not so much for piercing as Romans 5 centuries later. South-american natives have crude weapons, but often coated with poison, because this is what works and is easily obtainable in a jungle (where metal rusts very quickly).
This is to argue that no weapon is better than other, this depending mostly on it's user's skill.

Many people don't realise that arms races still took place back here. Tribes on the italian peninsula originally fought in a phalanx, larger shields and the maniple system came into use, suddenly the blocking elements take less casualties, and other elements are bypassing you completely. Supporting troops were not well equipped enough to defend the flanks, and the phalanx fell apart. (although in a straight fight on flat ground, a phalanx would and did beat the maniple.)

Equipment depends on your opponent, not just your own environment. The legions understood this, so they adapted and defeated most armies they came up against, and pretty much anything when not outnumbered.

Those legions were so versatile... just scary Wink

Quintilius Varus, Give me back my legions! - Skill and tactics says it all.
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Marcus the Shadow Fighter
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PostSubject: Re: Regarding the Equipment Thread   Tue Jul 17, 2012 5:01 pm

To what Mordred says, he basically said what I could not Laughing

Quarterstaff or Bo-staff against a sword - katana, longsword, short sword, it does matter a lot - the quarterstaff/bo-staff user basically wants to break as many bones as he can with the staff. Aim at the head, throat or stomach to kill(suffocate), wrists and legs to immobilize. It is very possible, although the swordsman does have the edge because of his cutting damage. I wouldn't consider grabbing the staff a great edge - you can simply move the staff so fast that it cannot be grabbed without risking breaking your own arm.

Also, the spear is a very versatile weapon. You can stab with it, whirl it around and use the blunt end - fast - and use the shield with it. While allowing for a fast-paced combat to match with the sword, you can still maintain range to your opponent with the spear. Obviously, anything can be beaten. The way of the spear is, simply, usually misunderstood in some way, either that it is slow or immobile, which usually is not the case. Keep in mind, too, that many spears were capable of slashing blows - this means that you could whirl it around, stab, slash, blunt in quick succession.

Another thing what might make us misunderstand the spear's potential is the way they teached it on the Middle Ages. It was based on accuracy and strength, rather than accuracy and speed.

Take a look at this photo of a viking warrior from a re-enactment event; notice the shortness of the spear. It looks agile, doesn't it? Also; you could hide the spear behind your shield rather easily, which meant you could come either from above or below, and even inbetween - the slash. And, what more - the vikings used their spears to throw and thrust.

The spear truly is a brilliant weapon, just as brilliant as the sword, axe and mace.

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PostSubject: Re: Regarding the Equipment Thread   Tue Jul 17, 2012 7:32 pm

I dunno it really depends. In a formation style battle? Spear all the way dude, I want that reach and I can use it well.
In more personal combat settings of small groups? I've bull rushed and disarmed to many spear users in life to trust them.
The fact of the matter is is once someone is inside a certain zone of control you're doomed with a spear. You meet a determined opponent who can close the gap and stay on top of you it's over.
Because with a spear all attacks need to come from a ready position or need room to hit hard enough. Thrust, back/ready, thrust. Thrust, out, block, ready, thrust under or over. If they thrust try to shaft their arm, the bruises help.
That's the elegance of a sword. The center of gravity is so close to the body each strike can flow into the next effortlessly. The sign of poor swordsmanship in my eyes is letting the sword get away from you.

My tactics outside a line battle?
Say I'm going S.Sword Shield against a Longspear: Long, Can be unbalanced, Get inside comfort zone quick, slashing effect negligible.
It's primary attack is a straight thrust.
Bait the attack, block/dodge. The attack is very focused and centralized making avoiding easy. Blocking is hard due to deception/perception.
Lock the weapon up in your shield or have your shield and body follow it back home while it recovers. If your hand is free make a grab.
Stay on top of them, give that spear no room to get the force it needs to hurt you. It has to go back to thrust and out to swing.
After that it's only a matter of time.

S.Sword Shield against a S.Spear Shield: Quick, Blunt dangerous secondary, Slash useful tool secondary, closer/disarm unlikely, shield covers recovery, shield offensive weapon.
It's primary attack is a straight thrust.
Bait the attack, block/dodge. This thing can change direction mid attack, keep an eye on it.
Try and block it downward. He is now overextended if he made a forcible thrust. Wound his arm. Fight is likely over at this point with drained strength. Keep wits and cautious but bring him down.
Or as soon as it starts falling back for the next strike follow it. Keep your sword near your shield.
He goes for the shield bash to keep you away? Bash his shield and stab his chest.
He doesn't and the spear is nearly ready? Keep your shield where his spear is and keep it pinned so he can't get momentum.
Swing away with your sword. He can't do to much when you're on him like that but do keep an eye out.

You could always try barreling in instead of baiting the attack like I do but that leaves your legs vulnerable unless you have a tower shield. Gods I hate fighting tower shields, bloody Romans.

There are always variables. Say you trip, lose grip on your sword, he is faster than you were expecting. But generally it's practically methodical to kill a spear user. Even a good one. I think most of the key is closing the distance and I cannot over emphasize footing. A spear users know mobility for enemies inside his comfort zone and you need to be able to hang.
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