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 Regarding the Equipment Thread

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Sir Haegon
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PostSubject: Re: Regarding the Equipment Thread   Tue Jul 17, 2012 7:32 pm

Well I don't want to be a spoilsport but I know all that, but apparently I wasn't clear enough in what I wanted to say.

A bo staff is useless against armor. It just is.
A fast spear loses power in the actual attack and (most of the times) cannot pierce armor. (eye-slits are very hard to hit on a moving target, believe me, I tried)
It is the inability to use it against plate armor. your opponent being in plate armor already gives you an advantage in speed.

To be able to actually win against such an armored opponent requires so much skill that it would be strange if all characters on this forum would be able to fight so efficiently. One or two, sure.

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Isabel Tenorio
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PostSubject: Re: Regarding the Equipment Thread   Tue Jul 17, 2012 10:54 pm

The point of armor is to make weapons ineffective. Even swords don't just cut through metal, you're going to have to find a gap or a weak point with most any weapon. At that point it's less about the merits of the weapon and becomes about the skill of the user finding those weak points and striking them.


Put on a sport helmet, then get your friend to smack you in the head with a broom handle Razz

(Don't do it....)

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Iskar
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PostSubject: Re: Regarding the Equipment Thread   Tue Jul 17, 2012 11:16 pm

Still the momentum of he blow has to go somewhere and even with a staff or spear you will eventually cause heavy bruises or even break bones.

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Saeros
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PostSubject: Re: Regarding the Equipment Thread   Wed Jul 18, 2012 12:31 am

Quote :
Put on a sport helmet, then get your friend to smack you in the head with a broom handle.

The first hit to head I've ever received was unforgetable. Even with a softened bamboo practice sword, and even the strike hitting the thickest part of the helmet, it took almost a minute for my hearing to return, and some seconds for me to know what happened. Yes, armors may be impenetrable, but weapons don't need to pierce it in order to kill us.

I not sure if a steel plate is really better than having a good soft pillow under your shirt Smile


Quote :
To be able to actually win against such an armored opponent requires so much skill that it would be strange if all characters on this forum would be able to fight so efficiently.

We are all the kingdom's elite fighters. I assume even a Silvermist, a typically ranged soldier, has better swordsmanship than a Sarleon man-at-arms.
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Mordred
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PostSubject: Re: Regarding the Equipment Thread   Wed Jul 18, 2012 1:17 am

Oh yeah, h-h-h-head wounds are always fun. I'm a sabre fencer and I used to blink when someone hit to the head, so I got one of my friends to tap me on the head with the blade (with a mask on), to try and make me used to it. What I didn't realise is that he was edging closer to me as he was doing this, then suddenly *WHAM*! Knuckleguard to the face!

I no-longer blink with headshots.
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Pravenstern
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PostSubject: Re: Regarding the Equipment Thread   Wed Jul 18, 2012 1:43 am

Why no love for Halberds?

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Saeros
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PostSubject: Re: Regarding the Equipment Thread   Wed Jul 18, 2012 2:03 am

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I'm a sabre fencer

Me too, with the foil! Although I'm much more experienced in kenjutsu.

Quote :
I used to blink when someone hit to the head, so I got one of my friends to tap me on the head with the blade (with a mask on), to try and make me used to it.

That was a good idea. My master taught me something about that: you pick a light shoe (a flipflop, or those chinese ones) and hit your own forehead with it, while keeping your eyes fixed at a point. Do it daily, and without much force, and it really works.
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Tubby McChubbles
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PostSubject: Re: Regarding the Equipment Thread   Wed Jul 18, 2012 2:06 am

2 quick points:
1)Saeros is right, we are all some of the best fighters in the realm, and therefore the RP world.
2)Padding was worn below armour, especially on the head.

Just to throw a wall of information in here, about real armour in the W European medieval period. (train of thought style, sorry)

It depends what quality of armour you are talking about. In the 13th century, we have records telling us that many very powerful nobles were injured and killed in tournaments (13th century tournaments were mock-battles, with a large number of troops on a side, and blunted weapons, used to prove tactics and prowess, rather than one on one or jousts). Edward I's teenage years saw him wandering around France taking parts in tourneys, and one instance saw 13 nobles dead, and another dozen with mortal wounds dying in hospital. This was in full 13th century armour with blunted weapons.

Conversely, the mid to late 14th century saw great armour improvements, to the point where the best-equipped nobles were absolutely invincible. Nobles would pretty much always survive battles to be ransomed, and virtually all deaths came from executions afterwards (which were rare due to the rules of warfare.) The only exception to this were the truly heavy blunt weapons. We have a record of a knight during the wars of the roses being killed by his commander with a warhammer, and we can assume that he was armoured at the time. Maces and the like would really disorient people, which is what they were used for after fluted armour prevented crushing blows, but pollaxes and things did become knight-killers.

It's the reason that shields died out. A shield hinders your balance and movement, and blocking a strike can break your arm or ruin your balance. (in fact, shields were used to deflect, not block) The only troops to regularly use shields were mounted knights, as they were able to negate a lot of force through height and movement.

To take out someone with high quality plate armour, you would only be able to disable them, and remove their helmet. The transitory period in armour improvement saw estocs and things for piercing gaps, but this got rarer as weaknesses were improved. (or pollaxes as mentioned)

Of course, all of this goes out the window when you head to eastern Europe and beyond, and before this period, shields meant a great deal.

Also: oh god, my sabre years.

Now back to orders, tubby!

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Sir Haegon
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PostSubject: Re: Regarding the Equipment Thread   Wed Jul 18, 2012 2:29 am

fencers? I didn't expect that!

I've always wanted to try out fencing, perhaps I will go to that free fencing course at the University.

don a cape, seduce the women and call myself 'the fox'.... should work.
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Mordred
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PostSubject: Re: Regarding the Equipment Thread   Wed Jul 18, 2012 2:39 am

Aelos wrote:

don a cape, seduce the women and call myself 'the fox'.... should work.

It does.

But yeah, seriously try fencing, I was captain of the University side, and we tried really hard to get new people involved and I hope that yours will do the same. Some of my closest friends were made on the team, generally they are like-minded people with a common interest in weapons.
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Sir Aranor
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PostSubject: Re: Regarding the Equipment Thread   Wed Jul 18, 2012 2:53 am

I got taught the spanish style of fencing.

"La Verdadera Destreza"

Not exactly the sport fencing you see nowadays.

Who else would develop the best fighting techniques but the spanish, the men who never stopped fighting?

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Sir Haegon
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PostSubject: Re: Regarding the Equipment Thread   Wed Jul 18, 2012 2:59 am

Sir Aranor wrote:
I got taught the spanish style of fencing.

"La Verdadera Destreza"

Not exactly the sport fencing you see nowadays.

Who else would develop the best fighting techniques but the spanish, the men who never stopped fighting?

That is the fencing style they used in 'the mask of zorro' Smile
With the imaginary circles. I thought they only taught that in Madrid.
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Sir Aranor
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PostSubject: Re: Regarding the Equipment Thread   Wed Jul 18, 2012 3:08 am

Aelos wrote:
Sir Aranor wrote:
I got taught the spanish style of fencing.

"La Verdadera Destreza"

Not exactly the sport fencing you see nowadays.

Who else would develop the best fighting techniques but the spanish, the men who never stopped fighting?

That is the fencing style they used in 'the mask of zorro' Smile
With the imaginary circles. I thought they only taught that in Madrid.

A friend of my father was from Madrid. That's who I learned it from. I've never watched the mask of zorro, but if that's true I should probably go watch it.

But your right, imaginary circles.


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Sir Haegon
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PostSubject: Re: Regarding the Equipment Thread   Wed Jul 18, 2012 3:13 am

you never watched it? I have been a huge fan of Zorro since I was 6.
But this is in no way related to the equipment thread.



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Saeros
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PostSubject: Re: Regarding the Equipment Thread   Wed Jul 18, 2012 3:36 am

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Who else would develop the best fighting techniques but the spanish, the men who never stopped fighting?

Italy, probably the only place whose origins are openly described as "founded on crime, murder and rape", and taught as that for the last 2000 years. Seriously, the founding of Rome is a story of blood and endless fighting. They also brought that to new places: have you even attended a dinner at an Italian family? I don't know how the whole country hasn't collapsed into a gigantic mass of hate and murder yet.
However, if it's like that, you should probably give even more credit to the barbarians Germans who invaded it later Very Happy
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Tubby McChubbles
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PostSubject: Re: Regarding the Equipment Thread   Wed Jul 18, 2012 3:42 am

I stopped fencing after I left school, but our team captain fenced for England at the time, and I once scored a point against him!

Rome was not at all what we would call civilised.

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"As the plague hit Paris and killed thousands, in England the king held a series of splendid tournaments. In mid-February he was jousting at Reading, then later that month at Bury St Edmunds, where he appeared dressed in a huge bird costume."

"Manny! Manny to the rescue!"
-The war cry of Baron Walter de Masny

Project X-Ray: A US army project to strap incendiary bombs to bats and release them over Japan. The plan was abandoned after the bats escaped and destroyed a hangar and a general's car in New Mexico.


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Saeros
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PostSubject: Re: Regarding the Equipment Thread   Wed Jul 18, 2012 3:48 am

My long-term friendship with anthopologists (I'm not one) taught me the "civilization" is an overrated concept.
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Sir Aranor
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PostSubject: Re: Regarding the Equipment Thread   Wed Jul 18, 2012 4:03 am

Saeros wrote:
Quote :
Who else would develop the best fighting techniques but the spanish, the men who never stopped fighting?

Italy, probably the only place whose origins are openly described as "founded on crime, murder and rape", and taught as that for the last 2000 years. Seriously, the founding of Rome is a story of blood and endless fighting. They also brought that to new places: have you even attended a dinner at an Italian family? I don't know how the whole country hasn't collapsed into a gigantic mass of hate and murder yet.
However, if it's like that, you should probably give even more credit to the barbarians Germans who invaded it later Very Happy

Spaniards build everything upon a very defensive posture. "Maintain the defense, that in it you will find the offense" (I forgot which master said that, I think Narvaez.

Spanish fighters strive to never go directly straight towards the adversary along what they called the diameter line (the line between both fighters), because of the risks involved. Instead, Italian fencing happens mostly over this diameter line, trying to get advantage by feints, postures or speed. When done wrong, the Italian way can be more dangerous to both fighters, whereas the Spanish way is safer.

Because they often walk at an angle and try to use pressure on the opponent's blade, Spanish fighters are led to use many more cuts than the Italians, using the momentum that the adversary provides when he pushes back and the angle of attack allowed by the offline steps.

During the renaissance, the Spanish had a lot more time to perfect their art.

1492 - Grenada conquered (End of the Iberian Moor Kingdoms)
1519 - Aztecs conquered (Almost 90% of Cortes's army were comprised of rodeleros)
1528 - Incas conquered
1567 - Low Countries in revolt (lasts till 1609)
1569 - Morisco revolt quelled
1571 - Battle of Lepanto (Turks defeated off Greece)
1588 - Battle of Gravelines (The Armada)
1608 - Moriscos revolt again

These are just the highlights, and don't include the various battles and actions by the Portuguese (We have to include them for the style) in the Americas, India and the Far East.

The Italians had their own wars as well, but their troops were usually a mixture of arquebusiers and pikemen, accompanied by knights on horseback. Plus, Italian swordfighting was more for duels, while the spanish civilian and military styles blended with each other.


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PostSubject: Re: Regarding the Equipment Thread   Wed Jul 18, 2012 4:09 am

Sir Aranor wrote:

1567 - Low Countries in revolt (lasts till 1609)

we call it the 80 years war.. Sad

anyway, the spanish were ruled by freaks of nature.
the Habsburger Jaw must have been a funny sight. Wink
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PostSubject: Re: Regarding the Equipment Thread   Wed Jul 18, 2012 4:16 am

Oh true, that was the 80 years war.

and let's not talk about the rulers Rolling Eyes

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PostSubject: Re: Regarding the Equipment Thread   Wed Jul 18, 2012 4:27 am

well, although the Dutch have been the most powerful nation once..... truly Wink
There is no Dutch fighting style.. no famous dutch swordsman like D'artagnan, only thing we have is our greedy trade personality, superior ships and something about pistols. (If I have to believe M&B: wsaf)

sad :'(
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Sir Aranor
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PostSubject: Re: Regarding the Equipment Thread   Wed Jul 18, 2012 4:31 am

Aelos wrote:
well, although the Dutch have been the most powerful nation once..... truly Wink
There is no Dutch fighting style.. no famous dutch swordsman like D'artagnan, only thing we have is our greedy trade personality, superior ships and something about pistols. (If I have to believe M&B: wsaf)

sad :'(

You actually did have a famous dutch swordsman-

Gérard Thibault d'Anvers, I believe.

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PostSubject: Re: Regarding the Equipment Thread   Wed Jul 18, 2012 4:33 am

Don't forget... it only took 80 years because the Dutch were too fond of selling to the Spanish.


I so love that era. Plus Piet Heyn! Perhaps he's not famous for his swordplay, but... come on! An ENTIRE treasure fleet? His story is too perfect, we need a big budget hollywood movie to ruin him.
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PostSubject: Re: Regarding the Equipment Thread   Wed Jul 18, 2012 4:38 am

haha well, we did sell weapons and to the spanish, but if we hadn't done that we would have lost.

My teacher explained it once, but I forget the exact reason.

Piet Heyn didn't actually capture the complete treasure fleet though, the Silverfleet was incomplete.

My personal favourite is Michiel DeRuyter, naval hero and admiral who, amongst great naval victory's, also went up the Thames to burn the entire English fleet.

Oh and Aranor, Gérard Thibault d'Anvers is actually from current Belgium.
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PostSubject: Re: Regarding the Equipment Thread   Wed Jul 18, 2012 4:44 am

He was still a dutch swordsman. He was born in the united kingdom of the Netherlands. Born a dutch, raised a dutch. In fact, I've only ever heard him considered dutch, never heard him considered a Belgian.

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